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I'm going to play a PFS scenario tomorrow with my paladin. I know that a cleric of Lamashtu will attend the game as well. While the cleric is not not evil, he will detect as evil because of his deity's alignment.
How this should be handled in Society games? I'm referring to the associates rule from paladin class description.
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I'm going to play a PFS scenario tomorrow with my paladin. I know that a cleric of Lamashtu will attend the game as well. While the cleric is not not evil, he will detect as evil because of his deity's alignment.
How this should be handled in Society games? I'm referring to the associates rule from paladin class description.
This is only a suggestion. Don't play the scenario with your paladin. Make a new PC and play that one instead. In-character I don't think I could role-play a paladin cooperating with the cleric of an evil deity even if I could find some excuse to bend the Code of Conduct. If the table is higher tiered and bringing a new 1st level character wouldn't be practical then tell the coordinator you can't play tomorrow. Wait to play the scenario on some other occasion, although there's no guarantee there won't be some servant of an evil deity on that table either. But that's the risk when you choose to play a paladin. Worst-case scenario you show up to the table and then allow the GM to read the introductory boxed text, then announce your paladin has a fit over the cleric, protests to the Venture Captain who then dismisses you from the mission. You accept a Chronicle Sheet with no XP, no PA point and no Gold. But you still have your principles.
There are a handful of players in my area who play clerics of evil deities and it is difficult to share the table with them but thus far we haven't had any evil-aura cleric + evil-detecting paladin combos.
Assuming the cleric isn't violating the paladin's code by committing evil acts, there really shouldn't be a problem. After all, the cleric's alignment isn't evil, he/she just pays homage to an evil deity.
Try to convert him from his wicked, wicked ways (if any). :-)
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I'm going to play a PFS scenario tomorrow with my paladin. I know that a cleric of Lamashtu will attend the game as well. While the cleric is not not evil, he will detect as evil because of his deity's alignment.
How this should be handled in Society games? I'm referring to the associates rule from paladin class description.
This is only a suggestion. Don't play the scenario with your paladin. Make a new PC and play that one instead. In-character I don't I could role-play a paladin cooperating with the cleric of an evil deity even if I could find some excuse to bend the Code of Conduct. If the table is higher tiered and bringing a new 1st level character wouldn't be practical then tell the coordinator you can't play tomorrow. Wait to play the scenario on some other occasion, although there's no guarantee there won't be some servant of an evil deity on that table either. But that's the risk when you choose to play a paladin. Worst-case scenario you show up to the table and then allow the GM to read the introductory boxed text, then announce your paladin has a fit over the cleric, protests to the Venture Captain who then dismisses you from the mission. You accept a Chronicle Sheet with no XP, no PA point and no Gold. But you still have your principles.
There are a handful of players in my area who play clerics of evil deities and it is difficult to share the table with them but thus far we haven't had any evil-aura cleric + evil-detecting paladin combos.
I'm not sure why you would ever need to do that. The rules specifically mention that you can associate with evil characters (note this is different than 3.5), and even those that sometimes violate your code. By the PFS rules you should be congenial with the person but you do always reserve the right to walk away if the person is playing outright evilly. On the other hand if that does happen it should actually be the evil player that leaves, not you, as the rules explicitly mention that evil characters are not allowed.
If you want inspiration on how to play a LG character with an evil character, even a CE one, there's much literature that explores this topic. One that comes to my head is Dragons of Summer Flame in the Dragonlance series, which would give you good inspiration on how to play it correctly. No other character should ever force another character to not play in PFS. If it does, there is something wrong at the gaming table, and the DM should deal with it accordingly.
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Assuming the cleric isn't violating the paladin's code by committing evil acts, there really shouldn't be a problem. After all, the cleric's alignment isn't evil, he/she just pays homage to an evil deity.
Well, yes, obviously the cleric's alignment isn't evil, and the players all know this, but since the character has an evil aura, how would the paladin know this?
So the paladin detects evil on the cleric and the cleric comes back *ping* evil. In my opinion, the paladin would now regard the cleric cautiously, but wouldn't have to flee from his/her duties as a Pathfinder just because the cleric detected as evil. If the cleric started committing evil acts, then the paladin would be forced into action, but since acting evil is strictly prohibited in PFS, this becomes a non-issue. What I'm not going to do at this point is declare, "since the PC detects as evil, the paladin now has to receive an atonement spell to atone for associating with an evil character" because, frankly, the character isn't evil.
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What I'm not going to do at this point is declare, "since the PC detects as evil, the paladin now has to receive an atonement spell to atone for associating with an evil character" because, frankly, the character isn't evil.
But in the spirit of good role-playing the Paladin wouldn't know that the cleric wasn't evil as Navdi pointed out. So he should probably get a precautionary Atonement just to be on the safe side in case his deity audits him. Sorry Josh, I should just let this thread die but I still have 15 minutes until I leave work ;)
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So the paladin detects evil on the cleric and the cleric comes back *ping* evil. In my opinion, the paladin would now regard the cleric cautiously, but wouldn't have to flee from his/her duties as a Pathfinder just because the cleric detected as evil. If the cleric started committing evil acts, then the paladin would be forced into action, but since acting evil is strictly prohibited in PFS, this becomes a non-issue. What I'm not going to do at this point is declare, "since the PC detects as evil, the paladin now has to receive an atonement spell to atone for associating with an evil character" because, frankly, the character isn't evil.
I get where you're coming from and I realize that once you start thinking alignments, and, for instance, what is considered evil you enter a gray area rules-wise.
The other problem is that Pathfinders commit evil acts pretty much all the time. Sometimes its written into their society mission or faction missions (steal this item, kill that guy, arson that warehouse, etc.), sometimes its just "business as usual" (Kill people and take their stuff). So choosing to play a paladin in the Pathfinder Society is really taking on a role-playing challenge.
Yet another problem is the dilemma a non-evil character worshiping an evil deity faces in following said deity's dogma. But this has nothing to do with the OP's dilemma.
I don't think Samuli is looking for any kind of declaration or ruling on the issue, rather he's probing for ideas on how to best role-play situations that might arise due to this these two characters participating on the same mission.
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That's a very rude thing to do!
"Oy, you're using intrusive magic on me! Well, I'm detecting magic and poison then! Yeah! How do you like that? There's nothing magical about you, but remember that pie you ate an hour ago...?"
Tomorrow we shall see how it goes. I'm optimistic and foresee only fun. Then again I'm the GM.
In my opinion the problem comes from the fact that the cleric is following a deeply evil deity.
Maybe issues like this wouldn't come if clerics had to be the exact same alignment than their gods. That's something i always enforced.
If you are a priest of a demon, then you are demonic, hence evil.
I have difficulty to see how a cleric of Lamashtu cannot be evil. Neutral doesn't fit a cult like this and chaotic neutral is often an excuse to play disguised psychopaths and mass murderers.
You cannot moderately be a cleric of a force of evil. A follower yes, but not a dedicated priest.
My two coppers.
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Couldn't you just be following a particular portfolio of that god? Lamashtu priests seem to act more as the leader of a community, anyway. They cleanse food/water, tend to the expectant mothers, even watch after the livestock (From Gods and Magic). She is the Fertility Goddess, after all, something important to...a lot of tribes.
True, Lamashtu herself has ulterior motives (sowing chaos and evil throughout the world by turning everyone to monsters that call her Mother), but a priest, especially a priest from a primitive tribe, could actually have surprisingly good intentions in following her!
I've a Cleric of Asmodeus. He likes the Law and Order of Hell, plain and simple (as well as the destructive gifts of Fire and Magic). I suspect my Cleric and a Paladin could actually be decent friends under the right circumstances.
Also, from a mechanics point of view, (as of other have said...uh...including Josh) there is nothing mechanically preventing that Paladin from working with the cleric as long as the Cleric is not overtly Evil. Lawful Good, not Lawful stupid.
Now Rovagug...well, we will just keep him out of this conversation...Rovie's just crazy.
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Try to convert him from his wicked, wicked ways (if any). :-)
Absolutely brillant. I thought about this at some point of character creation, but had totally forgotten it. It's exactly what my (somewhat clueless) Taldorian knight would do, being a gentleman and all.
In my opinion, the paladin would now regard the cleric cautiously, but wouldn't have to flee from his/her duties as a Pathfinder just because the cleric detected as evil. If the cleric started committing evil acts, then the paladin would be forced into action
Thank you for your opinion. This is what I thought as well, as a general guideline. But/and as evil is subjective to the characters, I'm looking for some nice role-playing opportunities tomorrow but in the future also. For both myself and any evil-doer's player.
The other problem is that Pathfinders commit evil acts pretty much all the time. Sometimes its written into their society mission or faction missions (steal this item, kill that guy, arson that warehouse, etc.)
This was that originally drove me to create a paladin for Pathfinder Society. I've yet to see any problems (with this character) but they're bound to happen. It's easy to disregard any conflicting faction missions, but what if at some point the society mission conflicts the code. I don't know what I'll do then. But shouldn't I receive the XP even if the character leaves the mission after briefing? It counts as a failed mission for sure, but don't you get XP from failed mission, as per the guide.
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But shouldn't I receive the XP even if the character leaves the mission after briefing? It counts as a failed mission for sure, but don't you get XP from failed mission, as per the guide.
This quote is from the chapter regarding character death, but I suppose it applies to a character quitting a mission for other reasons as well:
"In any scenario, so long as a PC played three encounters, they’re awarded their XP for that scenario." (PSGtOP v.2.0. p. 19)
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If the cleric started committing evil acts, then the paladin would be forced into action, but since acting evil is strictly prohibited in PFS, this becomes a non-issue.
Are all the society and faction missions doable without performing evil acts?
They have to be, because evil actions are forbidden in society games. It would serve no purpose to print missions that are impossible to complete. As Josh has reviewed all scenarios, and stated that evil actions are not tolerated, all evil missions have most probably been removed (mistakes can happen, of course).
Please note, that this is no longer a paladin issue, but something that affects each character in PFS.
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Are all the society and faction missions doable without performing evil acts?
They have to be, because evil actions are forbidden in society games. It would serve no purpose to print missions that are impossible to complete. As Josh has reviewed all scenarios, and stated that evil actions are not tolerated, all evil missions have most probably been removed (mistakes can happen, of course).
Please note, that this is no longer a paladin issue, but something that affects each character in PFS.
Depends on whom you ask. From my perspective, there have been some evil acts in faction missions, such as murdering people who are no longer a threat, once using poison that was deliberately designed to be excruciating. (And, poison being involved, a paladin of that faction would have unambiguously fallen, had he attempted the mission.)
I considered those to be traps for the greedy and for those who place Faction Prestige above moral sensibilities. I've let the players know that, if they went ahead with those missions in a straight-forward manner, they'd be committing evil acts, and so far they've all chosen to forbear.
As I say, it's a matter of perspective. Some GMs wouldn't have a problem with good-aligned characters doing any of that.
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Josh already said no evil alignments, no evil acts. It's a table rule, so it can't go into effect, even if the player suggests one. The paladin is safe. Even something happens if the paladin does have a grievance against another PC for the PC's actions, it doesn't require a smiting on the spot. In this case, a report to the Venture Captain regarding the offending PC's conduct is more appropriate, and I expect most reasonable GMs would consider the matter settled, and the paladin's code upheld.
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Josh already said no evil alignments, no evil acts. It's a table rule, so it can't go into effect, even if the player suggests one. The paladin is safe. Even something happens if the paladin does have a grievance against another PC for the PC's actions, it doesn't require a smiting on the spot. In this case, a report to the Venture Captain regarding the offending PC's conduct is more appropriate, and I expect most reasonable GMs would consider the matter settled, and the paladin's code upheld.
Yes, smiting your companions is a very unlawful thing to do, as evil as they may be.
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Depends on whom you ask. From my perspective, there have been some evil acts in faction missions, such as murdering people who are no longer a threat, once using poison that was deliberately designed to be excruciating. (And, poison being involved, a paladin of that faction would have unambiguously fallen, had he attempted the mission.)
I considered those to be traps for the greedy and for those who place Faction Prestige above moral sensibilities. I've let the players know that, if they went ahead with those missions in a straight-forward manner, they'd be committing evil acts, and so far they've all chosen to forbear.
This is why the Guide spells out the alignments of each faction and which classes will have the hardest time completing each faction's missions. Strangely, I've seen more amoral faction missions from N Taldor and Qadira than from LE Cheliax, although perhaps it was because they were more illegal than evil.