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If anything I was concerned that the lunge+whirl wind attack combo was too powerful.
It really is not, but it is worthy of respect.
Now I might have a new perspective on it. One of my players is using the combo in our campaign.He has a quite decent fighter with these feats, but the combo is not really so lethal. He gets to shine when fighting loads of less formidable opponents delivering an average of 17 hp dmg to all foes within 15' (lunge+enlarge person). This might clear an area of henchmen and cannon fother in 3 rounds (or 2 is backed by a fireball). In the mean time these meanins get to make attacks as normal for 2 or 3 rounds).
What really is starting to trouble me is how this tactc might affect parti survivability. Right now the party is headed into a den of ogre barbarians with an average of 110 hp and able to deliver considerable ammounts of damage. With the described damage output the fighter would be 7 rounds in defeating a group of these ogres (half that if baked by fireballs). If the ogres do 35 hp dmg on average each, that would be 140hp dmg/rnd for a group of 4 ogres, which over 3 rounds = 420hp dmg (enough to severely damge the party and kill 1 or 2 characters) for and over 7 rounds = 980hp dmg (enough for a two times over TPK).
As I see it if the fighter relies too heavily on whirlwind attacks he is going to doom himself and the party. [Something I am not at all interested in!]
Without knowing the level of your party and the build of the Ogres your going to be chucking at them (which are obviously not standard Ogres from the MM3.5)... I'll hope the fighter surprises you, as he should not be a one trick pony.
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Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.Largely this means that a rogue is inefective with a whip and his sneak attack becomes useless. If you are wielding a weapon that does not do any damage you cannot with any reason argue that you can do sneak attack with it either.
Actually, a rogue can do sneak attack with subdual weapons.
With a weapon that deal nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, non even with the usual -4 penalty.
In the case of creatures with creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher (like your Ogres), a 9th level rogue only assigns the 5 point bleed to each of them, drops the whip, and draws a rapier. He'll rely on the improved invisibility and his 2 attacks (plus any AoO granted from the fighter's constant trip attacks) to take down Ogre after Ogre.
And, yes, since the rogue successfully hit with a sneak attack the bleed goes through. He doesn't have to deal damage.
Note: The PRGCR says, “Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue’s sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.”
The rogue might however trip enemies with the whip, but cannot himself benefit from the AoO from Greater Trip.
Correct.
At the same time the fighter does not benefit from lunge when making AoO.
This depends on whether or not the person running the game allows the fighter to take AoO during a whirlwind. If so, you are correct accept when it's the fighters turn. If not, than you are correct.
As Grandfather mentioned is happening in his group, it's only going to be an effective combo against many bipedal foes of your size. If they're larger their CMD is going to be quite abit better. The over reliance on making checks against someones CMD is going to result in quite a respectable failure rate meaning theres a decent enough chance theyre going to end up tripping themselves.The 4th level CR 7 Barbarian Ogres listed in the MM3.5 would have a CMD of 27 (10, +7 BAB, +8 from Str, +0 from Dex, +1 from Size, +1 from the Ring of Protection). The regular CR 3 Ogre only has a CMD of 18 (10, +3 BAB, +5 from Str, -1 from Dex, +1 from Size).
The 8th level human fighter mentioned previously has a trip CMB of +21 (Str Mod +8 (22 Str, +4 stat item), BAB +8, fighter weapon training +1 (pole arms), feats +4). Against the CR 7 Barbarian Ogres, he trips them on a roll of a 6 (8 if raging). If the fighter has enlarge person cast on him, he trips on a 5. If he has fly cast on him, he's immune to counter trips. Against the regular CR 3 Ogres, he's unstoppable.
So in the scenario of 4 or more Barbarian Ogres, he's probably going to keep 65-75% (up to his dex modifier + 1) of them on the ground...
I agree, it's not game breaking. I've seen it play out. There are levels which it shines... and there are situations where it shines... Outside those levels and situations it's not worth it. I think it still needs a healthy dose of respect though.
So I put forth its not as game breaking as it seems on paper. Also, an over reliance on this tactic will have consequences that balance out or may even negate any benefits.
At 8th lvl a group of 4 ogre barbarians would constitute an average encounter which should deplete 25% of the parties resources, but not be lethal in any way.
If just one ogre is left standing it is very probable that he would rush the fighter.
Compared to 3.5, Pathfinder ogres should have one more feat and rage powers. I suggest giving the ogre improved grapple and a bite attack. Then have the ogre grapple the fighter. The ogre's +29 CMB (raging) should prove a challenge to the fighter (app. CMD 10+5(str)+3(dex)+2(misc.)=20)
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.Largely this means that a rogue is inefective with a whip and his sneak attack becomes useless. If you are wielding a weapon that does not do any damage you cannot with any reason argue that you can do sneak attack with it either.
Actually, a rogue can do sneak attack with subdual weapons.
True. But since the whip cannot do any damage to an armored opponent the sneak attack ability (incl. bleed) is of no consequence.
Its lige throwing a pillow at a dragon and insist on doing damage. It is not going to happen.As for the Bleed ability I think it needs revision. It makes no sense to apply this ability to non-lethal damage attacks (unarmed attacks, whip, sap), since they would normally not cause bleeding wounds. I think the restrictions of Bleeding strike, i.e. piercing or slashing weapons only, should apply to this ability as well. Even if bludgeoning weapons can cause hemorages and internal bleeding, those would probably require much higher Heal skill DC than listed.
Still I don't see how one could stack Lunge AND Whirlwind. I am not talking about rules, I am talking about logic.
Me neither.
They probably did it in a John Wu movie, though :)
Jason, or some other offical ruling aside the feats work exactly how you think they work. You can trip all targets with-in your reach and trip them. Yes, the wip is the new spiked chain.
Jason, or some other offical ruling aside the feats work exactly how you think they work. You can trip all targets with-in your reach and trip them. Yes, the wip is the new spiked chain.
I thought the Bladed Scarf was?
Jason, or some other offical ruling aside the feats work exactly how you think they work. You can trip all targets with-in your reach and trip them. Yes, the wip is the new spiked chain.I thought the Bladed Scarf was?
I remember a comment that the bladed scarf will be re-made, most likely, to be brought to par with the spiked chain; this was covered in the bladed scarf vs. spiked chain thread (yes scream, scream like a little baby guys, here comes the nerf stick).
Jason, or some other offical ruling aside the feats work exactly how you think they work. You can trip all targets with-in your reach and trip them. Yes, the wip is the new spiked chain.I thought the Bladed Scarf was?I remember a comment that the bladed scarf will be re-made, most likely, to be brought to par with the spiked chain; this was covered in the bladed scarf vs. spiked chain thread (yes scream, scream like a little baby guys, here comes the nerf stick).
The other item i noticed was there was a scorpion whip I think it was called...it was a whip but had a tip to be able to do lethal...
The other item i noticed was there was a scorpion whip I think it was called...it was a whip but had a tip to be able to do lethal...Jason, or some other offical ruling aside the feats work exactly how you think they work. You can trip all targets with-in your reach and trip them. Yes, the wip is the new spiked chain.I thought the Bladed Scarf was?I remember a comment that the bladed scarf will be re-made, most likely, to be brought to par with the spiked chain; this was covered in the bladed scarf vs. spiked chain thread (yes scream, scream like a little baby guys, here comes the nerf stick).
All items made prior to Pathfinder will probably be re-made to be in proper balanced.
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All items made prior to Pathfinder will probably be re-made to be in proper balanced.The other item i noticed was there was a scorpion whip I think it was called...it was a whip but had a tip to be able to do lethal...Jason, or some other offical ruling aside the feats work exactly how you think they work. You can trip all targets with-in your reach and trip them. Yes, the wip is the new spiked chain.I thought the Bladed Scarf was?I remember a comment that the bladed scarf will be re-made, most likely, to be brought to par with the spiked chain; this was covered in the bladed scarf vs. spiked chain thread (yes scream, scream like a little baby guys, here comes the nerf stick).
I believe the scorpion whip is in an allowed book even. I know a friend of mine was talking about using it.
It's a bit of a moot point though, since you can do the same trick with a normal reach weapon and enlarge person (you actually end up with a 25 ft. reach between weapon reach, enlarge, and lunge, plus as a large creature you occupy a 10' by 10' area, making your total covered area 60 feet wide.) (And I have to give credit to Thrikreed for forcing me to double check all this and see that yes, enlarge person really does work that way, it's crazy, but legal according to RAW.)
How do you compute this 25 ft reach? Can you point out the rule used to double the reach of an enlarged reach weapon?
How do you compute this 25 ft reach? Can you point out the rule used to double the reach of an enlarged reach weapon?
Found it. Under "Reach Weapons" (Equipment): A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. But you knew this already, so I'm really answering myself here. Mmm... a case for my therapist. Again ;-)
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1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
2. Does this description apply to all my AoOs, only my AoOs granted by combat reflexes, or doesn't apply (e.g., using an off-hand weapon to make the AoOs)?
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities."
1) Yes (Whirlwind to anyone in reach which is 15' for Whip) and No (no Greater Trip AoO)
2) You can't make a non-Whirlwind attack until after your turn is over.
1) Yes (Whirlwind to anyone in reach which is 15' for Whip) and No (no Greater Trip AoO)2) You can't make a non-Whirlwind attack until after your turn is over.
That is however an interpretation as there hasn't been an official ruling yet on this oft asked question. I still believe that you do retain all AoO gained this way.
Been awhile since the last post, but as a novice player, I thought up this combo on my own, only to find it here when searching Google, prompting my creation of this account and my first post on the forums. Maybe we'll get some new input.
I've read through everything both here and in the rulebook pertaining to this, and still haven't come to a final decision on the combo as a whole, so I would love it if some kind of official decision could be made by a company representative.
Other than that, and pardon me if it's a dumb question or one that's already answered in another thread, but since just attacking with a whip provokes AoO (unlike other trip weapons) and the improved trip feat negates the AoO on you "when performing a trip" (and not "from performing a trip"), would it negate the AoO you provoke from the regular use of a whip or not?
Again, I'd love an official answer, but I'm not expecting one, so what does everyone else out there think?
Edit: Just fixed some italics. Should've previewed first.
Performing a trip with a whip to an adjacent target technically provokes two attacks of opportunity. So by getting improved trip you only get attacked once instead of twice.
From a logic point of view: (no rules involved^^))
You can't make multiple trip attempts with a whip in one round.
A trip attempt with a whip is different to one with a staff (e.g.). With a staff you simply hit the opponents legs, so he will fall.
With a whip you grab your opponents leg and pull it to you, so the opponent loose his balance and fall.
Even so a "whirlwind" attack with a whip is also... un-logical, because you loose your momentum and your attack direction etc. the first time you hit an enemy.
From this point of you, I would denie such a "multi-feat-multi-trip" system with a whip.
That depends on how you conceive of the whirlwind attack.
What if you use it to take the legs out of the first person in a group so that they fall and tumble the others over like ninepins?
Whirlwind attack is NOT always whirling your weapon in a big circle, it's a mechanic for delivering an attack effect on everyone within range. For each weapon it might be different:
A greatsword? Swing massive sweeps.
A rapier? surround yourself with a glittering fence of whirling steel.
... and so on.