If a dragon uses one of the shapechanging spells how does that affect the dragons statistics. Does it lose natural armor, strength, constitution, hit points, SR, DR?
I was going to have a dragon encounter my party in human form and wanted to know how to handle its surprise round (if there is one).
You might want to look up the polymorph subschool rules.
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Per PRD: "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
Thanks for the link, I missed that information.
It appears the dragon in human form only retains its hit dice, int, wis, cha, spells, spell-like abilities, languages, skills, and feats?
The dragon loses all of its str, dex, con, DR, SR, natural attacks, breath weapon, immunities, flight, etc.
Uhm,
Where does it say he loses STR/DEX/CON? These are not special powers, either extraordinary or supernatural. They are stats. The only stat modification per alter self is they get a +2 Str for being a medium humanoid, or a +2 Dex for becoming a small humanoid.
So those dragons walking around as humans can be very very nasty in a fight (imagine running into a halfling with 35 Str and 10 Dex and 25 Con. :)
Check those polymorph subschool rules again, MDT; the ones that ravingdork posted the link to.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
Large: -4 Str; +2 Dex; -2 Con (Medium)
Huge: -8 Str; +4 Dex; -4 Con (Medium)
Gargantuan: -12 Str; +4 Dex; -6 Con (Medium)
Colossal: -16 Str; +4 Dex; -8 Con (Medium)
So, an ancient bronze dragon uses his change shape ability to assume the form of a human. Pre-transformation he has Str 35; Dex 8; Con 25; and hp 324 (24 hit die). Post-transformation, he has Str 23; Dex 12; Con 19; and hp 252 (24 hit die). He loses his flight and natural weapons, but retains his natural armor, his spell-casting, and all supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary abilities that do not depend on his form.
Note that change shape is identical to polymorph which does not have any ability score adjustments.
Master Arminas
Uhm,
Where does it say he loses STR/DEX/CON? These are not special powers, either extraordinary or supernatural. They are stats. The only stat modification per alter self is they get a +2 Str for being a medium humanoid, or a +2 Dex for becoming a small humanoid.So those dragons walking around as humans can be very very nasty in a fight (imagine running into a halfling with 35 Str and 10 Dex and 25 Con. :)
You're forgetting the size modification. A Huge dragon polymorphing into a medium humanoid would end up at -6 Str, +4 Dex, -4 Con.
Gah,
Bitten by the 'multiple rules in multiple parts of the book'. Sorry. Although I do believe he loses his Natural Armor as well. That would be dependent on the body.
Actually it's right there in the polymorph subschool rules.
Gah,
Bitten by the 'multiple rules in multiple parts of the book'. Sorry. Although I do believe he loses his Natural Armor as well. That would be dependent on the body.
A grey area. It specifically says that you gain the natural armor bonus of the creature you transform into. It also lists the particular characteristics you lose: and natural armor is not among them. I agree, they should, but it can be argued that they don't.
Master Arminas
A grey area. It specifically says that you gain the natural armor bonus of the creature you transform into.Gah,
Bitten by the 'multiple rules in multiple parts of the book'. Sorry. Although I do believe he loses his Natural Armor as well. That would be dependent on the body.
Actually, it doesn't say that. It says that the specific polymorph spell grants "a bonus to your natural armor".
The correct interpretation of that still eludes me. I'm inclined to say it modifies your base form's natural armor (meaning you don't lose your natural armor), or alternatively the granted bonus is the only natural armor you get.
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
I bolded the part which bears on this issue. Like I said, I don't think it should, but it can be argued that it does.
Master Arminas
What size is the dragon? It does keep SOME of its physical ability scores.
You check its size, compare that to the table to see what the new base scores would be, then add +10 Strength, +8 Con.
A grey area. It specifically says that you gain the natural armor bonus of the creature you transform into.Gah,
Bitten by the 'multiple rules in multiple parts of the book'. Sorry. Although I do believe he loses his Natural Armor as well. That would be dependent on the body.Actually, it doesn't say that. It says that the specific polymorph spell grants "a bonus to your natural armor".
The correct interpretation of that still eludes me. I'm inclined to say it modifies your base form's natural armor (meaning you don't lose your natural armor), or alternatively the granted bonus is the only natural armor you get.
You are correct and I misquoted the text originally. I did not mean to imply otherwise, but I had to grab the phone.
MA