Only a little consideration.
Min-maxing aside, why putting 7 Int to a character? Remember, this is a ROLE-playing game; playing a 7 Int/16 Wis character means this is more or less a 'Forrest Gump' character.
How can anybody want to play a 'chh...chh...uh, person' ?
Aside from a hack'n slash adventure, such a character is almost unplayable (at least, IMHO and with my style of play... unless you want to play a real dumb person, that is - dumb in the sense of, 6-years old IQ).
'No, I dunt want go there... I scared'
'Uh, big lizzy! Heheheheh !'
'Waaah! Me hurt!'
Especially considering a Monk should be a person who meditates and tries to find the inner perfection... even with high Wisdom, I hardly doubt such a character would have the conception of inner perfection in the first place...
Of course YMMV.
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"Is it not written? Be like unto a child, and true inner peace will follow."
As long as you're playing your low Int and low Cha (simple and honest, but a kung-fu prodigy) there's nothing inherently wrong with those stats. That said, if you are just picking those numbers to maximise your combat advantages then for shame!
If you're not going for the uberDex, then a Dwarf seems like a better choice, as you can drop CHA lower (if you don't mind being particularly ugly) and get a free boost to CON.
The philosophy of stat choice v's roleplaying is an interesting topic but alas probably not one to get into here. Yes, I have to admit this is purely a mechanics question; Is this an efficient stat array for 15 points or would I be more 'effective' with a different spread?
I'm not concerned about the roleplaying implications to be honest - I can cope with all eventualities.. :)
Fine, then speaking about effective 'mechanical' point buy:
STR 13 or 14+2 racial increment
DEX 13 or 14+2 racial increment
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 16
CHA 7
The 'DEX Monk' would obviously take Weapon Finesse (and maybe also Weapon Focus) and will have higher defensive bonuses (AC, Reflex) and a higher Initiative value. His damage however will suffer.
The 'STR Monk' will have lower defensive stats, but he would have (effectively) one extra feat (no need for Weapon Finesse), and all his attacks will deal more damage.
At 4th, the increment would go to the 'other' physical status (a DEX Monk would increase STR, and a STR Monk would increase DEX), in order to lessen the penalties of the chosen build (the STR Monk would improve his defenses, while the DEX Monk would improve his damage); then, all the other increments would go either on the main statistic, or splitted among Wisdom.
For example a STR build (20th level) could be:
STR 20 or 18
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 16 or 18
CHA 7
A DEX build would have STR and DEX swapped, of course.
Never forget Improved Natural Attack (a Monster feat that Monks could take in 3.x - we wil see in the upcoming Bestiary if this is still true), bumping the damage from 2d10 to 4d8 is a must !
(but I still wouldn't play him with 7 INT... at least, buy the poor fella a Headband +2 INT !...)
I'm about to start playing a Monk at 1st level in a new Pathfinder campaign. I've been deliberating over starting stats for a while now, see-sawing between a complete min-max (whatever that means for a Monk) and a more even spread.
Here's where I've got to;
Human Monk Lvl 1
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Chr 7Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Improved Grapple, Weapon Finesse, (Combat Reflexes at 2nd, Power Attack at 3rd).
Skills: Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth
How about:
Human Monk Lvl 1
Str 14+2
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Chr 8
Feats: Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, (Dodge at 2nd, Power Attack at 3rd).
Being Human
Lots of debate here but I still think the best choice for a Monk since 1/2 orcs changed from Beta. I like the idea of a Dwarf Monk and you get an intereting stat-array with 15 points but I wanted an 18 dex and that isn't easy with a dwarf.
Well, I'd go with a dwarf, personally, but to each their own. With a 15 point buy I wouldn't be trying for an 18 Dex either, as it's just going to cost you more than it's worth.
Dex-based
I can never quite get my head around the str-based approach. In theory it looks appealing but you just give up too much focused on str rather than dex when it's only 1 feat for weapon finesse.
2 feats, actually, for Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, plus taking an 18 dex/13 str vs. an 18 str/13 dex means you're losing 3 damage off every attack, roughly the equivalent of an extra 1d6.
Going with a higher Strength means you can spend those 2 feats on something like Weapon Focus (increasing your attack bonus even more over the dex fighter) or Dodge (to close the gap in AC) or heck, power attack (to just completely blow the Dex fighter away in terms of damage).
Other stat blocks
The main alternative is 13, 18, 10, 7, 16, 7 for the extra point of wis and subsequent +1 DC for Stunning fist etc. The 'min-max' approach by the way was 10,20,11,7,14,7 which is great for landing a punch but lacking in most other areaa, especially damage.
I'm not actually sure how min maxed that is, the point of optimization is to maximize your benefits while minimizing your weaknesses, that certainly does the first, but at the cost of massive weaknesses in other areas. If I were optimizing this, instead of going with:
Human Monk Lvl 1
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Chr 7Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Improved Grapple, Weapon Finesse, (Combat Reflexes at 2nd, Power Attack at 3rd).
Skills: Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth
I'd either go with:
Dwarf Monk Lvl 1
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 16 (14 base, +2 racial)
INT: 7
WIS: 16 (14 base, +2 racial)
CHA: 5 (7 base, -2 racial)
With Dodge and either Improved Initiative or Mobility.
Or if you're just dead set on playing a human, I'd go with:
Human Monk Lvl 1
STR: 17 (15 base, +2 racial)
DEX: 15
CON: 12
INT: 7
WIS: 15
CHA: 7
With Dodge, Toughness, and either Improved Initiative or Mobility, Mobility is probably the weaker choice, in my opinion, but it can be very useful in the right situation.
You'll have the same AC starting out, and much, much better options for improving your stats when you hit level 4, 8, etc. I'd suggest improving Strength first, then Wisdom, then either Dex or Int.
Once you hit level 2, pick up Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus and Power Attack at levels 3 and 5 (which one first depends on the rest of your party, if you have a bard or someone that's either buffing you or debuffing your foes, then I'd go with power attack first, if you're hitting against full AC and don't have access to any buffs, I'd go with Weapon Focus first). By the time you hit level 4, you can either be hitting with a +7/+7 (with weapon focus) or hitting for 1d8+6 (with power attack).
True, and ths is the crux of the str v's dex argument. But I think you lose more from a low dex than low strength.
Lets take the 18/13 comparison above.
High Str gives you; +3 damage per hit, 2 saved feats, +3 to Cimb/Swim (if chosen)
High Dex gives you; +3 AC, +3 Reflex Save, +3 Initiative +3 Ranged Attack, +3 to Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Ride, Stealth (if chosen)
Well, the ranged attack bonus part is a bit of a non-issue for a monk, but point taken on the initiative and reflex saves, I still would say the bonuses of high dex don't outweigh the potential bonuses of having 2 extra feats (especially if you take a more balanced approach, ala the build I posted at the end).
Feats are nice but 2 feats gives you so much I'd say its worth it. Those two feats that the str monk gains will never make up for all the advanatages of the high dex.
This is compounded as I get my stat bonuses ending with a 5 point difference in AC among other things...
Actually if you'll notice, the balanced str/dex build for a human I posted at the end is only 1 ac lower starting out with a 16 AC (2 dex, 2 wis, 1 monk, 1 dodge) compared to your 17 AC (4 dex, 2 wis, 1 monk bonus) and if you wanted to focus on AC you could easily bring it up to even (or even 1 higher at some levels) by improving the 15 wis / dex to 16.
By the way the point of the 13 str for this build is to be able to take power attack as well....
True, but even if you pick up power attack you're missing out on some useful feat somewhere, Improved Init, Weapon Focus, etc. (And weapon focus in particular is important if you're planning on using power attack).
Neither build is insanely better than the other, but they both end up with roughly the same attack bonus, same hp, same AC, same CMB, etc.
The Strength build though does more damage and has a higher CMD, plus two extra feats, and benefits more from multiple stat boosting items.
The Dexterity build has a higher Reflex save, slightly better skill totals, and benefits more from single stat boosting items.
I'll give you this much, the high dex build is pretty decent, and better than I would have thought initially just based on my gut instinct. In the end though, damage is such a huge part of the game, and flurry of blows multiplies even a small bump in flat damage by so much, that I'd have to go with Strength.
I'm starting up a level 1 monk as well. I look forward to it. Here's my build, so far.
Human Monk 1
LN Medium Humanoid
Init +3; Senses perception +7
Languages common
---------------------------------------------------
AC 16, touch 16, flat 10; (+3 dex, +3 wis)
HP 11 (1 HD)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +5
Speed 30ft
---------------------------------------------------
Melee flurry of blows +1/+1 (1d6 + 2) or
Melee unarmed +2 (1d6 + 2) or
Ranged improvised weapon +3 (1d6 + 2)
BAB +0; CMB +2, CMD 15
---------------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 7
Racial bonus feat, skilled
Class unarmed strike, flurry of blows, stunning fist 1/day
Feats dodge, combat expertise, improved disarm, weapon finesse
Flaw must accept any duel
Skills acrobatics, climb, escape artist, perception, sense motive, stealth
Possessions monastery emblem necklace, monk's gi, siangham, shuriken 20, 30 gp
As far as those stats go, you really can't afford an 18, but in the end you don't need one either. A 14 or 16 is great, an 18 is unheard of in a normal society. Even though you're a monk, I just can't imagine anyone wanting an int under 10 -- it just hurts too much!
By the way it costs you over HALF of your points to go from a 16 to an 18. Think about it.
Wow 7 Cha! Not a very charming/beautiful monk.
Not one to talk though. A tielfling monk I'm building for a player in my RotR game has a CHA of 8. Not a people person.
Yup, and I play him as a 7 cha. It's pretty fun to just stare at people and say one word.
Te emost efficient spread for any character would be 13,13,13,13,13,10
Nope. For any character build, some stats are worth more than others - hence why the diminishing returns at the top end are necessary.
The exact worth of each stat, and at what point it's worthwhile taking a penalty in one stat in order to get more points for another, is where the debate is.
You might see a 20 stat as a possibility. I'm going to call it entirely stupid for a 15-point monk, because those points from 16-20 could be much better spent on your other physical stats and/or Wisdom.
Yes, it *is* the most efficient spread but clearly not the most effective - the exact point I'm trying to make.
I really have to disagree with that being the most efficient spread for a Monk. With 4 base skill points per level and potential favored class or racial bonuses, there's absolutely no need for a 13 intelligence, even if you want to avoid lowering Int, putting more points on is just a waste. Charisma is most definitely a drop stat as well, Monks have zero use for it outside of Intimidate, making the 7 in charisma almost mandatory if you want to claim efficiency.
An array seeking maximum efficiency would look more like Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 7, which is playable, but doesn't take into account racial bonuses (which could make a 15 or 16 more efficient because of the free bump) or the bonus stat points from levelling (which make odd numbered stats more efficient, which again makes 15 a slightly better long term buy than a 14.)
An 18, by contrast, which is what you would need to start with a 20, would force the rest of the array to look like this, 18, 13, 10, 10, 9, 7. And I'd like to see the player that would rather have a monk that has to either have TWO physical stats at a 10 or have a +0 wisdom modifier.
Yes, it *is* the most efficient spread but clearly not the most effective - the exact point I'm trying to make.
I'd even argue that it's not that.
Having 13 STR, CON, CHA, or to a lesser extent WIS is pointless, because you get no benefit over-and-above what 12 gets you.
The "most efficient" spread would be a mix of 12's and 14's.
The biggest reason, besides skill points, to have an int of 13 or higher is for Combat Expertise (or other feats.) Thankfully for you monks tend to get the Improved Trip feats even though you don't meet the prerequisites.
Now, what I was saying about the stats is this:
A plus one to a roll is nice, but compared to the efficiency you're losing it's not worth it. Great: you like big rolls and having those numbers on your sheet makes you hard. I understand that -- I've been there.
What I'm pointing at is those extra 7 points you're spending on making it an 18, or whatever, could have gotten you a +2 or +3 to your ac with the same cost, by putting those points into wisdom to make it a 16 (or whatever). That's all.