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Looking for some clarification (hopefully something offical) about casting spells in a grapple/pin. The wording of rules in different parts of the book seem to be at odds with each other.
Can I cast a spell while grappled?
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.
Hmm sounds like I can. Then I figure I better look up the grappled condition (at the other end of the book):
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Ok, sounds like I can cast spells (including ones with somantic components) it just needs a Concentration check. Especially when I look at the Pinned condition.
Pinned: A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
But then I look that the magic section.
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
This seems at odds with the other rules.
So how does it work? A table like this might be handy.
_____Grappler__Grapplee__Pinned
V
S
M
Given that grappling a wizard is a common way to try and stop them casting spells, I think this could all have been put together in one part of the book.
Basically you have to put all three sections together. So you can attempt to cast a spell as long as you meet the following conditions:
1) The spell does not have somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand.
2) You successfully make a concentration check against (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting).
If the spell and concentration check matches the above the spell goes off. In 3.5 grapple you could use an grapple check to actually draw a weapon or material component, but that is no longer the case at least by raw. So unless you had the material component in hand at the time you where grappled or the spell does not require one you can't get that spell off. So its a really limited list of spells you can get off or even attempt while grappled.
I disagree. The Magic section ruling looks identical to the 3.5 rule, whereas the first three quotations are new ground.
If there was a type-limit on spellcasting (eg no somatic) it should reasonably be mentioned in all four sections. My hunch is that the Magic section ruling is a leftover from 3.5 and needs to be subjected to errata correction.
The Grappled Condition section makes clear that a grappler can use one hand for spellcasting, which suggests that somatic-component spells can be cast. In addition, three out of the four sections suggest that any spell can be cast - with a fairly tricky check - and I would go with that majority ruling.
Well Pinned says I can't cast spells with material components at all, and the Magic section says I can, if I have them on hand at the time. That seems contradictory.
Grapple says "only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell ..." I know it doesn't say spell with somatic components, but 'any action that requires only one hand' really heavily implies you can cast spells with somatic components. Grapple condition says nothing about somatic components but does talk about Concentration checks (spell casting) implying that a Concentration check is all you need to cast a spell. This is backed up by Pinned condition talking about both No somatics and a Concentration check, showing that Pinned is different from Grappled in this respect. Again it is an assumption, but when you list restrictions and something isn't on that list, you generally assume you can do that something as normal.
Thereas Magic section says no somatic components at all.
If I hadn't found the Magic section wording I certainly would have ruled somatics were ok in a grapple but not a pin.
To be honest, I'm not fussed what the ruling is, but I would like to know a clear official description of how it works.
Thanks for your replies, I hope this gets resolved, because I know that it is going to be quite important any time a spellcaster is in a grapple.
As I mentioned before in the other topic.
The magic section can be ignored. The combat and condition section covers this in the right amount of detail. The magic section just needs errata.
So therefore:
Grappling - Somantic Spells allowed as free hand, with a concentration check obviously.
Pinned - No Somantic Spells, Verbal fine unless a move is made to cover the mages mouth and only if the materials were in the hand before you were pinned.
Errata for Magic Section
Should Say
Pinned: Cant cast somantic etc.
Grappling: Can cast somantic.
It was probably just not checked or done by a different person.
Note you only need ONE free hand for somantic spells else what are you doing with your staff, sword, dagger or spellbook thats in your other hand?
Whilst I know your after an official ruling, what I mentioned above fits from a realism and rules angle. We all know things slip through to print.
Whilst I know your after an official ruling, what I mentioned above fits from a realism and rules angle. We all know things slip through to print.
I am looking for something offical, because I know players who will sit and argue this both ways. Thanks for your help with this.
I am looking for something offical, because I know players who will sit and argue this both ways. Thanks for your help with this.
Whilst I know your after an official ruling, what I mentioned above fits from a realism and rules angle. We all know things slip through to print.
I know what you mean, I am always grateful for the members of our group but then again maybe because its split 4-2 with 4 out of 6 being DMs/GMs.
Hopefully one of them jumps down and helps you out ;)
..
So therefore:Grappling - Somantic Spells allowed as free hand, with a concentration check obviously.
Pinned - No Somantic Spells, Verbal fine unless a move is made to cover the mages mouth and only if the materials were in the hand before you were pinned.
...
I can go with that as it makes sense if the one section is left over from 3.5. If so it makes a grappled wizard less messed over. If you do take all the sections as correct then a wizard or any spellcaster is not going to be able to cast almost anything.
I like the way u guys put this, the only problem is, I see NO way a wizard would pass his concentration check, do you?
It's a tough check, no doubt about it - but it's still (more or less; more less than more) a step up for casters since 3.5, which isn't the norm for Pathfinder:
Concentration: d20 (assume 11) + (spellcasting mod+level)
Grapple casting DC: 10 + CMB (str mod + base attack+size mod+appropriate bonusses) + spell level.
So against a dedicated grappler - with full bab and high Str mod - the difference is the spell level, plus the size mod, plus the bonusses arising from appropriate feats etc. Hard.
A few things might alleviate this. First, size mods have been reduced (thankfully). Second, Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple give +2 each 'on checks to grapple a foe'...which might or might not be appropriate additions to stop a spellcaster casting. (If I were taking a staunch line DMing, I would rule that they are).
Third, Combat Casting gives +4, which balances both those feats for far less feat cost, and is available from the get-go. So, for example, Elven 5th level Wizard with 18 Int vs Ant Lion from Bonus Bestiary. The Ant Lion is a CR5 grapplemeister, and gets a hefty grapple CMB of +16; to cast a 1st level spell is a dc27. The Wizard has a Concentration check of d20 + CL+Int+Combat Casting = d20+13; he needs to roll a 14. It's a long shot, but given a couple of rounds he has a chance.
Lastly, Colour Spray is still the surprisingly-chunky-grappling-nerfer it always was, though I'm sorry to say most people don't notice this. Still, a 1-round stun, a Will save and a mere +1 Concentration DC will serve most grappled Pathfinder arcanists well for a good long time. The Ant Lion, for example, has a Will save of +2 - against a basic DC of 15 for the aforementioned Elf - though alas, being the grapplemeister, the giant vermin is immune to mind affecting effects...
question for spellcasting with verbal only spells (dimension door, metamagic spelled spells (still spell / quickened still spell). would the players have to make the concentration check or not due to rules from grappling or would the feat allow the player to cast the spells while grappeled or would they still have to make a concentration check to cast the spells.
if possible any response would be great. *pokes paizo*
It's a direct contradiction that, afaik, has not been resolved by the staff despite much poking. My belief is that the section under spells is a copy pasting error from 3.5, and that the section under the grapple rules allowing you to cast with one hand is a deliberate change and thus the rule that should be followed.
reason why its confusing is in my opionion if your spell has only verbal components who cares if i'm grappled i'm still able to "yell, shout, whisper, and say" any spell phrase out there i just can't do the somatic components and reach for material components. that alone makes me feel that the 10+(cmd of other grappler)+spell level is redundant for casting it but the gm i'm with states its the rules. i can understand being a little bit removed from being able to cast like a defensive cast check being reasonable but not the cmb rules.
Well, since we got a topic active at the moment, here my own question:
Is the Dimensional Steps spell-like ability of the Conjurer specialization subject to having to make a concentration check while in a grapple?
If someone grappling you, it will be harder to speak in a controlled way. So the grappling DC would make since, if you looked at that way.