Maybe this has been brought up before. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this but why do all of the base classes have capstone abilities except for Clerics?
I know that having two domains might complicate things a little. If the capstone were based on domains then they'd have to be half-capstones and if you chose, say, Earth and Fire then you do get immunity to Acid and Fire. That's pretty weak but at least it's something. None of the other domains appear to give you anything at level 20 except for maybe one more use of something that you've been getting since level 8.
So, what's the deal? Where did the Cleric's capstone ability go? Could they not think of anything to give you for staying for 20 levels?
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Maybe this has been brought up before. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this but why do all of the base classes have capstone abilities except for Clerics?
I know that having two domains might complicate things a little. If the capstone were based on domains then they'd have to be half-capstones and if you chose, say, Earth and Fire then you do get immunity to Acid and Fire. That's pretty weak but at least it's something. None of the other domains appear to give you anything at level 20 except for maybe one more use of something that you've been getting since level 8.
So, what's the deal? Where did the Cleric's capstone ability go? Could they not think of anything to give you for staying for 20 levels?
Immunity to fire seems pretty good to me. Clerics get spells, that is their capstone very much like mages.
Immunity to fire seems pretty good to me. Clerics get spells, that is their capstone very much like mages.
Immunity to an element is only for those who take Air, Earth, Fire or Water domains. None of the other domains provides anything at level 20 that I know of. It's not a bad half-capstone but a good majority of clerics aren't going to have one of these domains.
All mages get a capstone, just like every other class. This is my point. Whether Clerics need one or not is irrelevant. They're the only class who gets nothing for leveling all the way to 20. This doesn't make any sense to me as it should grant something.
At least three other classes get some kind of instant death effect. Shouldn't they get a death touch (evil) or life touch (good) or something? It's not like that would be overly powerful compared to what the other classes get.
I guess part of my dismay is that I am going to be playing a Cleric and when I looked to see what my capstone would be if he got all the way to 20, I found nothing. :(
All clerics can channel energy in some format; perhaps our capstone can be tied to that ability in some way. It'd have to be something pretty special and unique from the channelling feats, though.
All mages get a capstone, just like every other class. This is my point. Whether Clerics need one or not is irrelevant. They're the only class who gets nothing for leveling all the way to 20. This doesn't make any sense to me as it should grant something.
Do mages have a capstone? All I see is a bonus feat, and the school powers are at level 8. Or am I missing something?
Do mages have a capstone? All I see is a bonus feat, and the school powers are at level 8. Or am I missing something?
I almost missed it too. It's buried in their level 1 ability dependant on their chosen school.
Intense Spells (Su): Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell. At 20th level, whenever you cast an evocation spell you can roll twice to penetrate a creature's spell resistance and take the better result.
Most of them are pretty weak though.
Do mages have a capstone? All I see is a bonus feat, and the school powers are at level 8. Or am I missing something?I almost missed it too. It's buried in their level 1 ability dependant on their chosen school.
Intense Spells (Su): Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell. At 20th level, whenever you cast an evocation spell you can roll twice to penetrate a creature's spell resistance and take the better result.
Most of them are pretty weak though.
Thanks! I'm actually getting ready to run a mage and hadn't paid attention to that. Doesn't look like Universalist wizards get a capstone, though....
EDIT: Sorry for the threadjack. :)
Thanks! I'm actually getting ready to run a mage and hadn't paid attention to that. Doesn't look like Universalist wizards get a capstone, though....
EDIT: Sorry for the threadjack. :)
Yeah, the Universalist got the shaft.
No problem. This thread doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Go figure. Over 1000 posts about Clerics not getting heavy armor prof. but no one cares that they get nothing for going all the way up to level 20. :S
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Thanks! I'm actually getting ready to run a mage and hadn't paid attention to that. Doesn't look like Universalist wizards get a capstone, though....
EDIT: Sorry for the threadjack. :)
Yeah, the Universalist got the shaft.
No problem. This thread doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Go figure. Over 1000 posts about Clerics not getting heavy armor prof. but no one cares that they get nothing for going all the way up to level 20. :S
If they don't have one of the energy domains.
Huh? Really? Nothing? I hadn't noticed that. How bizarre.
Immunity to fire seems pretty good to me.
At 20th class level? Really?
In 3.5 it was possible to get immunity to one element, and resistance 10 on the other three, as well as DR 10/<something> by 11th level.
It certainly isn't core, and I'm sure as hell not saying Clerics should get that at 11th level...
But a little less gap on the immunity to a single element and nothing else would be nice.
Maybe add a little to it, like becoming ageless as you become more in tune with the elements.
Something.
Or it could be...
Clerics were designed with the idea of god specific prestige classes for them to go into. *shrug*
I really don't see how they could make a capstone ability for a class whose focus is decided by their god. Even two lawful good clerics, one a follower of the god of Truth and Justice, would have a different capstone ability than the cleric of the god of Light and Healing.
And making the capstone dependent on domains doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, since any given god lets you pick, what, 4 domains, give or take? (going from memory here). And heaven forbid the fence sitters, who pick an alignment and call it good instead of being devoted to a god.
They get an extra 8th and 9th level spell at 20th...an extra miracle a day is a good enough capstone for me.
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Thanks! I'm actually getting ready to run a mage and hadn't paid attention to that. Doesn't look like Universalist wizards get a capstone, though....
EDIT: Sorry for the threadjack. :)
Yeah, the Universalist got the shaft.
No problem. This thread doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Go figure. Over 1000 posts about Clerics not getting heavy armor prof. but no one cares that they get nothing for going all the way up to level 20. :S
I think people did all their complaining in the heavy armour thread. Time we started perhaps a thread about the cool new things clerics can do in "Pathfinder RPG".
S.
Looking at some of the sorcerer capstones:
Aberrant Form (Ex): At 20th level, your body becomes truly unnatural. You are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks. In addition, you gain blindsight with a range of 60 feet and damage reduction 5/—.
Demonic Might (Su): At 20th level, the power of the Abyss flows through you. You gain immunity to electricity and poison. You also gain resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, and gain telepathy with a range of 60 feet (allowing you to communicate with any creature that can speak a language).
Ascension (Su): At 20th level, you become infused with the power of the heavens. You gain immunity to acid, cold, and petrification. You also gain resist electricity 10, resist fire 10, and a +4 racial bonus on saves against poison. Finally, you gain unlimited use of the wings of heaven ability. Finally, you gain the ability to speak with any creature that has a language (as per the tongues spell).
Power of Wyrms (Su): At 20th level, your draconic heritage becomes manifest. You gain immunity to paralysis, sleep, and damage of your energy type. You also gain blindsense 60 feet.
Elemental Body (Su): At 20th level, elemental power surges through your body. You gain immunity to sneak attacks, critical hits, and damage from your energy type.
Soul of the Fey (Su): At 20th level, your soul becomes one with the world of the fey. You gain immunity to poison and DR 10/cold iron. Creatures of the animal type do not attack you unless compelled to do so through magic. Once per day, you can cast shadow walk as a spell-like ability using your sorcerer level as your caster level.
Power of the Pit (Su): At 20th level, your form becomes infused with vile power. You gain immunity to fire and poison. You also gain resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, and the ability to see perfectly in darkness of any kind to a range of 60 feet.
One of Us (Ex): At 20th level, your form begins to rot (the appearance of this decay is up to you) and undead see you as one of them. You gain immunity to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. You also gain DR 5/—. Unintelligent undead do not notice you unless you attack them. You receive a +4 morale bonus on saving throws made against spells and spell-like abilities cast by undead.
Wizard capstones are a lot tamer than this.
At 20th level, this resistance changes to immunity to the chosen energy type.
At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.
At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
etc.
Finally, druids get to wildshape at will.
I really hate capstones. They seem to have decided that, after level 19, inter-class balance simply does not matter. They may be right, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Divine/Infernal Judgement: When you cast a spell, designate a single opponent whose is targeted or included in the spell's area of effect. The target rolls two saves, and takes the lesser of the two.
I really hate capstones. They seem to have decided that, after level 19, inter-class balance simply does not matter. They may be right, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
I dunno...I think alot of it is cumulative. Some classes have a capstone, and its pretty good. Others have a capstone and its kinda weak. For clerics, they don't have one, but unlike the other classes, clerics are also the one class who have, imo, maore personal variability than any other. A cleric devoted to the god of magic won't think, act, or even talk like a cleric devoted to the god of slaughter (for example). What kind of capstone do you give the cleric class that every single cleric, no matter what, will be able to use?
I dunno...I think alot of it is cumulative. Some classes have a capstone, and its pretty good. Others have a capstone and its kinda weak. For clerics, they don't have one, but unlike the other classes, clerics are also the one class who have, imo, maore personal variability than any other. A cleric devoted to the god of magic won't think, act, or even talk like a cleric devoted to the god of slaughter (for example). What kind of capstone do you give the cleric class that every single cleric, no matter what, will be able to use?I really hate capstones. They seem to have decided that, after level 19, inter-class balance simply does not matter. They may be right, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Add capstones to their elective paths (in this case domains). Same as with wizard or sorcerers.
They can be a little tamer because the cleric gets two of them (though it probably won't matter if they aren't, since the capstone power for other classes is all over the place anyway).
Honestly, my only *real* problem with Clerics is that PFRPG was really focusing on keeping players in their base class, and yet Cleric is a class that, if built correctly, can actually be dropped at level 8 for a PrC and not really suffer any ill effects.
Nearly 1/3 of the cleric based prestige classes progress Turn Undead (now Channel Energy), and almost all of them offer full casting progression. The real incentive to stay in your base class SHOULD be your domains, but just look at the domains that either a) don't progress past a certain point, or b) aren't honestly worth pursuing:
Artifice: 1/day Dancing Weapon at level 8. Every 4 levels thereafter you gain another use, but you should honestly be good with just the 1st.
Community: 1/day you can let your allies use your saves instead of their own BEFORE anyone rolls. You all have to be effected by the spell, which means it's likely a reflex save, and yours sucks. Every 4 levels thereafter you get another one, but really...?
Darkness: At 8th level you get a ridiculously limited version of improved darkvision.
Death: No improvement past 8th.
Healing: No improvement past 6th.
Luck: 1/day reroll, but sticking it out in the class only nets you another 2 uses by 18th.
Nobility: Leadership isn't going to improve, but your Inspiring Word will. Still, it's debatable whether or not 4 rounds is good enough.
Rune: No improvement past 8th, save for rune duration and a measly damage bonus.
I think that's a matter of most cleric PrCs being poorly designed.
Still a valid concern, though, since the goal of 3.P was at least partially to clean up other people's mistakes.
Honestly, my only *real* problem with Clerics is that PFRPG was really focusing on keeping players in their base class, and yet Cleric is a class that, if built correctly, can actually be dropped at level 8 for a PrC and not really suffer any ill effects.
Nearly 1/3 of the cleric based prestige classes progress Turn Undead (now Channel Energy), and almost all of them offer full casting progression. The real incentive to stay in your base class SHOULD be your domains, but just look at the domains that either a) don't progress past a certain point, or b) aren't honestly worth pursuing:
Artifice: 1/day Dancing Weapon at level 8. Every 4 levels thereafter you gain another use, but you should honestly be good with just the 1st.
Community: 1/day you can let your allies use your saves instead of their own BEFORE anyone rolls. You all have to be effected by the spell, which means it's likely a reflex save, and yours sucks. Every 4 levels thereafter you get another one, but really...?
Darkness: At 8th level you get a ridiculously limited version of improved darkvision.
Death: No improvement past 8th.
Healing: No improvement past 6th.
Luck: 1/day reroll, but sticking it out in the class only nets you another 2 uses by 18th.
Nobility: Leadership isn't going to improve, but your Inspiring Word will. Still, it's debatable whether or not 4 rounds is good enough.
Rune: No improvement past 8th, save for rune duration and a measly damage bonus.
I look at it as they made the one class for whom PrC's should be written gets the most benefit for joining one. I mean, even back in 2nd ed, cleric abilities were more defined by their god and less by the class itself.
Of course, I suppose that means we need actual god related PrC's...but I suppose that gives me soemthing to either a) look forward to, or b) write for my players.
I think people did all their complaining in the heavy armour thread. Time we started perhaps a thread about the cool new things clerics can do in "Pathfinder RPG".
S.
I may be in the minority, but I can't think of one cool new thing for Clerics.
I may be in the minority, but I can't think of one cool new thing for Clerics.I think people did all their complaining in the heavy armour thread. Time we started perhaps a thread about the cool new things clerics can do in "Pathfinder RPG".
S.
Clerics really didn't need anything...I mean...done right, they really could be one person parties in 3.5...
What about having the god-specific capstones? Every god entry would have something unique thing as a reward for it's most holy followers?
Now we're getting to a possible mechanics problem, so what about summoning one of the favourite god-servants (like the night monarch for Desna) who would perform some task for her? One round of invulnerability to all allies in certain area? For a short while actually manifesting as an aspect of a deity? Bonus to miracle spells (being able to perform what wasn't quite possible on lower levels)? WAY TOO MANY THINGS TO CONSIDER (and playtest).
Getting any mechanical crunch would first require comparing how the cleric would play out with the other classes to see whether he really needs some kind of boost at lvl 20 or it should be somthing more flavour based than something combat oriented.
God-specific capstones are a cool idea.
Here's an easy capstone: Once per day, good 20th level clerics may effectively use one charge of a Talisman of Pure Good; likewise, evil 20th level clerics can use effectively one charge of a Talisman of Ultimate Evil.
Neutral clerics don't get this, even at 20th level, but they can't be targeted with it either, so this is not all bad.
FWIW, wizards don't get a capstone either, apart from their final "every five levels" wizard feat.
God-specific capstones are a cool idea.
I like that notion.
All the same, I'm in the camp that thinks clerics are better than ever in this iteration.
A god-specific capstone just seems good for flavor. Each god could have something special for their clerics who prove their devotion by staying in one class all that time. They deserve something big, and it should be very god-specific and fit the feel of their devotion.
Godless clerics should be SOL for a capstone.
Godless clerics should be SOL for a capstone.
Bad game design.
Depends on what you take for the capstone. If you take the class for too powerful, you can give it a neat capstone that doesn't directly support the combat prowess and doesn't let the class step on someone else's toes.
Perhaps the universalist wizard would be able to see and see through magic in superior way? True Seeing and Arcane Sight at-will afer 1 min of concentration. Concentrating on this ability as a full round action and duration only as long as the concentration lasts? It doesn't have much direct combat use, but I think the universalist would certainly love it.
The cleric would need more thinking.
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Clerics are like Universalist wizards, that's why they don't have a capstone.
They have access to all cleric spells like a universalist wizard has all wizard/sorcerer spells. by 20th level their spells are more than enough of a capstone. Having a choice of 4+ 9th-level spells from a list of 11 seems like an excellent capstone to me.
If domains restricted them to certain spells like specialist schools then yes they would require a capstone but they don't.
Clerics have always been and still are the most rounded and strongest class in the game IMHO. They can duplicate almost any other class to some degree and can switch rolls each day depending on their spell lineup while still providing a group with healing.
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Nice capstone but could be considered unfair to other classes. Especially since the true seeing spell has a nice 600gp component
Ah, I missed that one... arcane sight and spellcraft to pierce illusions? It's been quite a while since I wizarded around and I wasn't exactly a detection specialist. Just thinking about something in the line with these effects. I never liked the way Dwarven stonecunning and elven secret doors detection worked, but it would work as well for magic.
I prefer the additional abilities throughout the life of the class over some penultimate capstone. I am with the camp who feels level 9 spells more than make for excellent capstones, and you get them a few levels earlier.
All the same, I'm in the camp that thinks clerics are better than ever in this iteration.
Must be a small camp. I'll admit that they needed nerfed because they were way too powerful in 3.5 so I can't see how anyone would think that they're better. That would mean that they are even more broken than ever.
Cleric and Universalist Wizard didnt get any capstones because they would be considered unbalanced. Considering how spells were weakened I have to say that is a weak premise. I would suggest capstones on the domains like the wizard specialists get for their schools, or maybe expand make channel energy affect outsiders
I don't really think balance is an issue once you reach level 20. The capstone powers are all over the place. One grants energy immunity and another grants the same immunity plus resistance to everything else plus DR and so on. If the classes are supposed to be balanced from levels 1 through 20 then the capstones aren't going for balance at or beyond 20.
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Exactly; and they DID get something pretty big, anyway. Since turn undead has been replaced with channel energy, they can now use that power to heal, and actually cast some spells without worrying about needing them desperately for spontaneously-cast healing. That's a fairly significant boost in power and flexibility for a class that was already arguably the most powerful, or one of the most powerful, in the game.
Clerics are fine. They don't need a "capstone," IMO.
Pathfinder fixed what was broken about Clerics in 3.5. They could double as melee tanks and be almost as good as the melee classes. Now it costs extra feats and there's no way to get that full attack bonus. The cleric is no longer terribly effective in melee. You can fill in in a pinch but you'll never be great at it.
So you are left with your spells which are probably the weakest set of spells this side of the bard. Unless they've added more spells above 6th level, which I doubt, the Clerics spells turn really bad at level 7 and 8. They only get a couple of good spells until the level 9 ones which aren't even all that.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks Clerics are so powerful.
Clerics really didn't need anything...I mean...done right, they really could be one person parties in 3.5...I may be in the minority, but I can't think of one cool new thing for Clerics.I think people did all their complaining in the heavy armour thread. Time we started perhaps a thread about the cool new things clerics can do in "Pathfinder RPG".
S.
I wasn't trying to suggest they needed anything.
Stephen Hill wanted to focus on the cool new for Clerics, and there really isn't any.
The new mechanics for Channel? They aren't new. They were in 3.5. (Not core, though.) Pathfinder did consolidate them, and make them core.
Domain powers aren't anything new, and getting an extra pair of them isn't a big deal at all.
While on the other side of the coin, there have been some serious nerfs to Clerics - and spells in general. (I'm not suggesting they weren't needed.)
I'm not sure why everyone thinks Clerics are so powerful.
I think it is a hold over from 3.5. So many people cried bloody murder over the Cleric in 3.5 for so long that I think people are expecting that to carry through to Pathfinder.
They aren't "so powerful". They aren't weak either. They're fine.
The Pathfinder team has put together a damned good class that can be specialized with feats and class choices (or even multiclassing) to perform whatever divine role you want it to.
My cleric hit level 6 last night. With a Rogue and a Wizard in the party and no warrior type, I am having no trouble at all keeping everyone alive and buffed and also contributing to the fight. I am very happy taking the chance of incurring an attack of opportunity because my AC is very high. My charm touch attack is an awesome tool and I have been able to use lots of actual spells for what they were intended for because I am using shield other on the Rogue with channel energy.
The
Cleric
is
Fine
As
Written
It really is.
I would consider being able to cast spells like "Miracle," "Storm of Vengeance," "True Resurrection" etc. four times a day quite "capstone" enough (Not to mention assorted domain spells and abiltiies).
I think this is an issue of letter of the rule versus spirit. The spirit of implementing a capstone ability for many classes was to give players incentive to stick with a class all the way to level 20.
Cleric is one of the classes PRE-Pathfinder revision that already was usually played single class because of how the class continued to be useful from start to finish, and I see little indication that that has changed. The cleric class gained improvements still (IMHO--I think channelling is a great improvement upon what it replaced), and it's still a good class to play. A "capstone" on a class that is already quite powerful at max level is just extraneous, and the idea that they should have one just because "everyone else does" not only holds little logic to it, but also defies the nature and spirit of the game's class design.
They aren't "so powerful". They aren't weak either. They're fine.
I doubt that.
It remains to be seen, but I foresee the "15 minute adventure day" getting shorter and shorter as levels go up.
With negative status removing spells no longer certain, save-or-die just "blaster" spells, and no sustainable way to maintain melee effectiveness (in higher level encounters), I see all casters (not just clerics) burning through resources even faster.
If you thought the adventuring group revolved around caster resources before... Just you wait.
I would consider being able to cast spells like "Miracle," "Storm of Vengeance," "True Resurrection" etc. four times a day quite "capstone" enough (Not to mention assorted domain spells and abiltiies).
I think this is an issue of letter of the rule versus spirit. The spirit of implementing a capstone ability for many classes was to give players incentive to stick with a class all the way to level 20.
Cleric is one of the classes PRE-Pathfinder revision that already was usually played single class because of how the class continued to be useful from start to finish, and I see little indication that that has changed. The cleric class gained improvements still (IMHO--I think channelling is a great improvement upon what it replaced), and it's still a good class to play. A "capstone" on a class that is already quite powerful at max level is just extraneous, and the idea that they should have one just because "everyone else does" not only holds little logic to it, but also defies the nature and spirit of the game's class design.
So then the Sorcerer is underpowered until he reaches level 20? Wouldn't that be bad design. The fact that all classes short of the Universalist Wizard getting a capstone isn't faulty logic. Specialist Wizards and Sorcerers can cast even better spells at high levels and get something. They don't neccesarily need something incredible. Anything would've been better than nothing when it comes to sticking with a class and not prestige classing for 20 level; DR 10/magic even.
It remains to be seen, but I foresee the "15 minute adventure day" getting shorter and shorter as levels go up.
With negative status removing spells no longer certain, save-or-die just "blaster" spells, and no sustainable way to maintain melee effectiveness (in higher level encounters), I see all casters (not just clerics) burning through resources even faster.
If you thought the adventuring group revolved around caster resources before... Just you wait.
I doubt very highly the nerf on instant death spells is going to have a measurable impact on a Cleric's spell resources. Most creatures that would fail that save (or the DM would allow to fail that save) are going to die from the new spell regardless. Channel Energy is greatly increasing my character's sustained presence in battles already. I don't think your point has merit at the moment.
and no sustainable way to maintain melee effectiveness (in higher level encounters)
What about the new Cleric now reduces it's melee effectiveness at the higher levels from before in any really measurable manner? I'd say the minor changes to a Cleric's melee abilities is felt more at the low levels.
So then the Sorcerer is underpowered until he reaches level 20? Wouldn't that be bad design. The fact that all classes short of the Universalist Wizard getting a capstone isn't faulty logic. Specialist Wizards and Sorcerers can cast even better spells at high levels and get something. They don't neccesarily need something incredible. Anything would've been better than nothing when it comes to sticking with a class and not prestige classing for 20 level; DR 10/magic even.
Well, yes, by default, getting ANY power at 20th is better than getting nothing, even if that power is to count the number of nose hairs there are in the noses of every troll in the kingdom (if nothing else, regular use lets you keep track of troll populations).
What we're arguing about in a way is in part design consistency. The Universalist wizard and the cleric have no capstone, everyone else does, it's natural to say 'hey, where's mine?'. Capstones were meant to give people incentives to stay in a given class till 20th level instead of multiclassing.
Do we feel that there's no reason to stay in the cleric class for 20 levels? Ninth level spells are pretty potent; only wish can match up with miracle, for example. This is presuming you can actually cast your 9th-level spells, or course; the cleric sees 4 of his 11 spells with expensive material components (3, really; Astral Projection is pretty cheap at 1000gp) that they might not be able to cast. But before that, you've got 8th level spells. Then 7th. And so on. Domain powers generally cut in at 8th level. Channeling improves every other level. Ultimately, we have to ask: will we pop into a prestige class? If that answer is 'yes', then there's a problem somewhere. In 3.5, I never saw a reason mechanically to remain a single-classed wizard; all you got were spells and bonus feats, which could be instead traded up for class abilities if I took a prestige class. I thought sorcerers were even more likely to do this. For clerics, I thought the same.
Now, the situation with the wizard, at least a universalist has arcane bond added, and hand of the apprentice. But again, no capstone. Sorcerers get bonuses up and down the scale now. Specialists get a few extras as well. Once more we ask, are 9th level spells enough? Well, druids got their primary ability (wildshape) monkied with, and they got a capstone too despite having 9th level spells.
What remains to be seen is how often people pop out of the cleric class to get another class in Pathfinder. And that will in part be based on how many PrC's give the cleric continued improvements in channel energy. If clerics now multiclass regularly beyond a few levels, then there's a problem. Until then, we don't really know if they NEED a capstone.
Doesn't mean clerics don't WANT one though.
It remains to be seen, but I foresee the "15 minute adventure day" getting shorter and shorter as levels go up.
With negative status removing spells no longer certain, save-or-die just "blaster" spells, and no sustainable way to maintain melee effectiveness (in higher level encounters), I see all casters (not just clerics) burning through resources even faster.
If you thought the adventuring group revolved around caster resources before... Just you wait.
I doubt very highly the nerf on instant death spells is going to have a measurable impact on a Cleric's spell resources. Most creatures that would fail that save (or the DM would allow to fail that save) are going to die from the new spell regardless. Channel Energy is greatly increasing my character's sustained presence in battles already. I don't think your point has merit at the moment.
This remains to be seen, Loopy. My cleric's preferred (and strongest) offense just happens to be those death magic effects. Slay living killed a druid's animal companion in battle last week; I doubt it would have worked using the Pathfinder version (it was in our 3.5 game). My destruction spell could potentially kill certain creatures in 3.5 that the damage version can't possibly take out now in Pathfinder (e.g. elder elementals).
If status effects are used on even a modest basis, then clerics will always need to have curative magic for them regardless of edition. But now, some of those spells don't work as well potentially. Depending on the cleric's caster level and the DC of effects, they might work just fine vs. weaker afflictions with no real net change in functionality. OR, they cleric will require an increase in expenditure of resources if poor die-rolling or tougher DCs are involved. Clerics lost a few lower-level spells as well (on a per day basis). The potential is there for clerics to use up their spells still, just that those spells won't be just converted to cure spells; they'll be used up as remove disease/remove curse/neutralize poison/deal-with-some-status-spell.
I can't speak for melee effectiveness, my cleric is a cloistered cleric and spellcaster, not holy soldier/front-lines type.
I think returning Channel Energy to beta would be a nice capstone for those who aren't already going to house that. I don't think that would make them overpowered. It'd be a nice addition to the only special ability that you get throughout 20 levels.
I think returning Channel Energy to beta would be a nice capstone for those who aren't already going to house that. I don't think that would make them overpowered. It'd be a nice addition to the only special ability that you get throughout 20 levels.
Perhaps even say that you can apply multiple channel energy feats simultaneously without using additional uses of the ability? You could turn undead/elementals/outsiders in one shot while healing the party.
I think returning Channel Energy to beta would be a nice capstone for those who aren't already going to house that. I don't think that would make them overpowered. It'd be a nice addition to the only special ability that you get throughout 20 levels.Perhaps even say that you can apply multiple channel energy feats simultaneously without using additional uses of the ability? You could turn undead/elementals/outsiders in one shot while healing the party.
Isn't that what was in beta?