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Hi,
First of all, I like the design of the Arcane Trickster
But...
how do you manage to hit your opponents to place your sneak attacks?
The BAB is poor. You go into this PrC with a BAB of 3 at Lvl. 6 and at Lvl. 16 you have a BAB of 8.
Even with ranged attacks or weapon finesse it's pretty likely you won't hit.
What do you think?
Hi,
First of all, I like the design of the Arcane Trickster
But...
how do you manage to hit your opponents to place your sneak attacks?
The BAB is poor. You go into this PrC with a BAB of 3 at Lvl. 6 and at Lvl. 16 you have a BAB of 8.
Even with ranged attacks or weapon finesse it's pretty likely you won't hit.What do you think?
Well looking at the Wizard you would have the same BAB as him. I would then classify this guy as more of a back of the line attacker.
I think if I were to make an Arcane Trickster I would concentrate on touch attack/ranged touched attack for my attack spells. I believe you can add your sneak attack damage right away with these spells.
At 16th any damaging spell you cast you can add sneak attack damage on.
So this would be brutal with the Area of Effect.
With the touch attacks the AC of the opponent drops significantly.
The rest of my spells would be utility/crowd control.
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At 16th any damaging spell you cast you can add sneak attack damage on.
So this would be brutal with the Area of Effect.
You can do that only once per day and only in the suprise round.
I think if I were to make an Arcane Trickster I would concentrate on touch attack/ranged touched attack for my attack spells. I believe you can add your sneak attack damage right away with these spells.
Of that I am not so sure. I always thought you have to have special abilities which allow you to add sneak attack to your spells.
If you can crit with it you can sneak attack with it.
In order to crit with it you must make an attack roll and deal damage with the spell.
SO any attack spell that deals damage can be used to sneak attack, provided you meet the requirements to sneak attack (i.e. flanking or denying dex bonus).
Ray spells and touch spells. If it deals damage (like shocking grasp or frost ray) then it also applies sneak attack. The Surprise spell ability isn't really for spells like this however, it's for damaging spells without such attack rolls, like fireball.
And don't forget... True Strike is your friend.
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Pretty much any time that your rogue can get a sneak attack in you can do so with any spell that uses attack rolls. The AT is one of those cases that you may want to go with delaying entry for a level or two to pick up another rogue talent.
I think if I were to make an Arcane Trickster I would concentrate on touch attack/ranged touched attack for my attack spells. I believe you can add your sneak attack damage right away with these spells.
It reduced my arcane trickster to only firing every other round or so, but if you choose your terrain correctly, you can snipe, move and hide, snipe, move and hide. With cantrips being at will, ray of frost or acid splash suddenly transform into serious damage spells if you can pull off sneak attack.
There are also spells in splat books that allow you to turn melee attacks into touch attacks. I'd save these for desperate straits, but it provides additional options.
It requires some thought and finesse to play. You may end up not being the damage dealer a typical melee rogue could be - but if you choose your moves carefully, your skills can be remarkably effective!
Hi,
First of all, I like the design of the Arcane Trickster
But...
how do you manage to hit your opponents to place your sneak attacks?
The BAB is poor. You go into this PrC with a BAB of 3 at Lvl. 6 and at Lvl. 16 you have a BAB of 8.
Even with ranged attacks or weapon finesse it's pretty likely you won't hit.What do you think?
What's been said here is right. The trickster sounds more awesome than it is, since, unlike a straight rogue, you (usually) get one spell to do damage with, while the rogue gets every attack as long as he's flanking, etc.
You need to be within 30' to get sneak attack damage, and it's not as much as a rogue's even then. Still, scorching ray with a few more d6s is fun when you can pull it off. Invisibility and true strike (get some items when you can afford it) help a lot.
Acid arrow is great for messing up casters. Ongoing damage! Acid splash is wimpy, but with sneak attack, it can take out mooks. I love that it denies SR, too. Drow mooks tremble in fear!
Raise your dex as high as you can. Weapon focus (ray) helps a little, but the trickster doesn't get many feats, and you'll want silent spell (or a rod of it) long before you get the tricky spells ability (11th level at the earliest). If your GM allows it, the practiced spellcaster feat is a must-have.
I think wizard is a better choice than sorcerer for this class, since raising your int. gives you more skill points, along with more spells.
Still, if you prefer blasting, sorcerer is hard to argue with.
The trickster, like a wizard, is great fun when he can plan ahead. He's an awesome spy/thief. Don't overlook the advantages of ranged legerdemain, either. It has a lot of potential.
The suggestion to take an extra level of rogue is good, too. Surprise attack is an obvious good choice for your rogue talent, but fast stealth is a real winner, too, when you need to get within 30 feet of your target, and don't want to take all day to do it.
At higher levels, true strike+ haste or a speed weapon will let you do a little melee without looking too bad.
Disintegrate is your friend, too (once you finally get it). If your target makes their save, they still take 5d6+ 1/2 your SA damage. That's more, innit? :-)
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Thanks, all suggestions are welcome.
I am going to specialize in divination and take the rouge talent suprise attack. This seems to be an absolutely powerfull combination with the suprise spell.
I am asking myself what Arcane Bond item suits the trickster. Because of the bad BAB I probably go for a ring or is a wand or staff the better choice?
One option not mentioned is the aberrant sorcerer's bonus 5' reach. I know you were talking about Wizard Divination but just wanted to call that out.
Now that sneak attack works with undead the disrupt undead cantrip is quite nice also. It does 1d6 and anytime you can sneak attack you can boost that for an undead damaging attack that bypasses DR.
Being able to craft dirt cheap might make a wand or staff appealing but there is the chance you can lose it. Ring of invisibility is a nice choice... but you can also craft a wand of greater invisibility for roughly the same price (12,000 gp).
I've heard a lot of people use arcane bond for a familiar and use the monkey for using rogue skills. I feel a little cheesey doing that but it's definitely a thought
What level is the character going to be?
Thanks, all suggestions are welcome.
I am going to specialize in divination and take the rouge talent suprise attack. This seems to be an absolutely powerfull combination with the suprise spell.
I am asking myself what Arcane Bond item suits the trickster. Because of the bad BAB I probably go for a ring or is a wand or staff the better choice?
My guy took a ring. Harder to lose than other items. The problem with the arcane bond for the trickster is that it's tied to your wizard level, which most of us only take up to 3rd. He had to wait 'til 7th (caster)level to put a 3rd caster level ability on it (invisibility),then had to pay 3/4 the cost to then add another 3rd CL ability (mind shielding).
I'm not sure that's the "official" rule, though. It makes sense to me, but idunno.
An amulet is good. You can actually enchant it at 3rd level. A wand has obvious advantages, too. You might want to take the feat just to be able to make wands you like (improved invis? Silent, empowered scorching ray?), freeing up spell slots for other tricks.
I wouldn't take anything I had to wield, personally. Tricksters like to cast spells while hanging from ropes and stuff...
They're swashbuckly mages! :-) LOL! Just get a rapier so you can look cool. You don't actually want to fight with it, though.
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The problem with the arcane bond for the trickster is that it's tied to your wizard level, which most of us only take up to 3rd. He had to wait 'til 7th (caster)level to put a 3rd caster level ability on it (invisibility),then had to pay 3/4 the cost to then add another 3rd CL ability (mind shielding).
Actually thats not the case. It is tied to caster level.
Actually thats not the case. It is tied to caster level.
I do believe you're right, now that I look at it. There were a lot of questions about it during the beta. I guess the arcane bond keeps going. It's just the school powers that cap at 3rd, at least the ones that say "wizard level," like mine do (evoker).
Ring of wizardry, here I come! Well, someday...
How to hit the enemy? Aside from previoulsy mentioned touch spells and invisibility you are still a spellcaster, no? Hold person anyone?
Aside from that I think that I'd once like to try the Form of the Dragon I (bonuses and five attacks) followed by the Transformation (full BAB and more bonuses). If I could make these into sneak attacks... :D
How to hit the enemy? Aside from previoulsy mentioned touch spells and invisibility you are still a spellcaster, no? Hold person anyone?
Aside from that I think that I'd once like to try the Form of the Dragon I (bonuses and five attacks) followed by the Transformation (full BAB and more bonuses). If I could make these into sneak attacks... :D
The AT has a lot of great options at higher levels, once he finally gets there.
Before he qualifies for the PrC, he doesn't have a lot of really devastating tricks. Cantrips like acid splash or ray of frost are good when he can sneak attack with them; 1d3+ ?d6 isn't bad for a spell he can cast all day. He might have an effective school power, like acid dart or hand of the apprentice that he can sneak attack with, too. Once he gets second level spells, he has to choose between the ranged touch spells and invisibility, and he won't have a lot of them for a few more levels (a wand or ring will help a lot, once he can get it).
The orb spells from spell compendium would be great if your GM allows them, and the practiced caster feat is a must-have, again if you can have it.
Without those things, though, it will be a long time until the AT can match or exceed the damage of a straight mage of his level.
Weapon Finesse is improved, now. It works with ANY light weapon, not just one, so it's pretty useful, and your AT surely has the highest dex you can give him, right? That will help him melee a little bit, as long as he keeps looking for the flanking bonus. He can take out a few mooks and save his spells for the bigger threats.
Later in his career, a spell-storing weapon can give his armed attack a little extra one-shot punch, particularly if it's combined with true strike. He won't get 2 attacks per round until 12th level, and he'll never see three per round without an extra rogue level, so he has to make that one melee attack count.
It's been said already, but I think it needs emphasizing: Invisibility and Ranged Touch Attacks will have you missing very rarely. If you're core-only, spells like Scorching Ray are amazing because you can get sneak attack up to 3 times with 3 attacks. You also really need to utilize your debuff spells, too! Blindness/Deafness will grant you sneak attack on the foe, and so will Black Tentacles. Remember, you're a Caster/Blaster, not a rogue. Wizards/Sorcerers excel in battlefield management, and many of your best moves involve smacking down your enemies and then layering on the damage. Chill Touch is a decent spell as well, as it allows attacks over multiple rounds.
Now, if you expand from Core-only, I definitely recommend the Unseen Seer or Spellwarp Sniper as your closing PrC, depending on which direction you want to run. Unseen Seer will boost your divination abilities (which is what you're focusing on, if I remember), while Spellwarp Sniper will increase your blasting abilities by turning your area spells of up to 5th level into rays (like Burning Hands) with no reflex save. You'll find the Seer in the Complete Mage and the Sniper in the Complete Scoundrel.
Spell-wise, I definitely recommend looking at the Spell Compendium. The Orb series is nice, as someone stated, but you'll need to take advantage of your stealthy abilities before you can reliably hit (I played a straight wizard and missed constantly). Wracking Touch, a 2nd level necromancy spell, is also a fantastic choice that lets you apply your sneak attack damage on contact (double if you actually qualify for sneak attack). Curse of Impending Blades, and it's Mass cousin, are good choices too that don't allow saves. If you step into the Player's Handbook 2 you can pick up Cloud of Daggers, which allows you to conjure a cloud of magical daggers and fire them off as a free action at the start of your turn (1 per turn, but still). You also get to use your caster stat in place of your dexterity, which is nice.
Also, since you're primarily a ranged spellcaster, I would recommend picking up Ranged Recall from the Complete Mage as a feat. 3/day you can reroll a missed ranged spell, but at a -5 penalty. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't- but hey, you already missed. :)
In a volley, such as multiple scorching rays, only the 1st ray does sneak attack damage.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a
An 11th lvl AT/wizard is an 8th level caster, getting two rays per spell. IF he can sneak attack, he gets an extra 4d6 on the first one. He effectively does the same damage as a straight caster of his level.
At 14th level, he'll finally get that extra ray. He can then do 4d6+6d6 with the first ray. Now, he's starting to get good. Once he gets the capstone ability, he's finally a bad-a$$. He earned it. At low levels,he's pretty weak.
I'm so glad they lowered the entry level and added some goodies.
Scorching ray is one spell, one sneak attack, but you can split the damage dice from it.
Not according to Wizards:
Volley Type Attacks
Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack.
(above-cited article)
Not to get all rules-lawyer on you. I see nothing wrong with splitting the damage up, but WotC be sayin' NO!
Ok, I get the volley bit, but I don't think that applies to Scorching Ray. The rules are that you get sneak attack for each attack roll, right? I always interpreted this line to mean multiple attack rolls:
...Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.
If you interpret it the same way, requiring 1 to 3 attack rolls, then you'd receive 1 to 3 sneak attack rolls, too.
Well. I certainly don't think that the trickster should exceeed the mage in damage output. The class blends spellcasting and a skill monkey. He should't be better than specialists in either area, but he should be doing well in both areas, which he does IMO. He isn't a stright damage dealer and should't be that easier thank stright wizard to get there, just like he shouldn't be as good as the rogue in melee. Good at both, not excellent at either.
Well. I certainly don't think that the trickster should exceeed the mage in damage output. The class blends spellcasting and a skill monkey. He should't be better than specialists in either area, but he should be doing well in both areas, which he does IMO. He isn't a stright damage dealer and should't be that easier thank stright wizard to get there, just like he shouldn't be as good as the rogue in melee. Good at both, not excellent at either.
Wait, he shouldn't be better at a Wizard at doing damage? Blasters who don't focus on AoE spells are undeniably inferior to nearly any other class (Including bard) who focuses on weapon damage. The only way a blaster can surpass a weapon user is to focus her damage on multiple targets. Now arcane tricksters gain poor BAB, no weapon proficiencies, and several abilities that tie their sneak attack damage to their magic. This, in and of itself, ranks them as arcane blasters. Because sneak attack requires an attack roll (except for their 1/day capstone) to be used, this means they have to use rays and touch attacks, which is exactly what it so inferior about casting blasters.
By saying that an arcane trickster, a character who sacrifices 3 caster levels to focus on single target damage and a larger skill list, should be inferior to pure wizards/sorcerers who choose to focus on blasting is basically invalidating the entire class. Woo, a few more skill points. Human Wizards have got that covered, thanks.
Arcane Tricksters are single target blasters with a good amount of skills. That's their niche.
Scorching ray is one spell, one sneak attack, but you can split the damage dice from it.So quicken spell is a must have. This way I can deal 2 times sneak attack. Also it should work nice with surprise spell. A quicken fireball + 7d6 + a normal Fireball +7d6 ;).
Pretty much. A r3/w3/ArT10 casts as a 13th lvl caster (core rules).
Quickened fireball+ Delayed blast fireball: 10d6+7d6 and 13d6+7d6 if it's a SA, save for both.
Burn two 7th level slots.
Quickened fireball+ fireball: 10d6+7d6 twice, save for both.
Burn a 7th and a 3rd level slot for a difference of 3d6. Me likee!
Unless they have fire immunity or make both saves and have evasion, your targets are looking at at least 17d6 worth of trickster pain. If they fail both saves, roll 34d6.I don't think I have that many! Kewl!
Rod of lesser Quicken spell and it's just 2 third level spells...
Ok, I get the volley bit, but I don't think that applies to Scorching Ray. The rules are that you get sneak attack for each attack roll, right? I always interpreted this line to mean multiple attack rolls:
...Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.If you interpret it the same way, requiring 1 to 3 attack rolls, then you'd receive 1 to 3 sneak attack rolls, too.
The wizard who lives by the coast mentions scorching ray as part of the example. First ray, only. It's kinda unfair, since multiple melee attacks all count for sneak attack damage. I guess they just don't want people getting all crazy with it. If a rogue could get sneak attack damage with every bowshot, he wouldn't go near anybody. He'd hang back, hide or be invisible, and kill 2 or 3 (or more)mooks per round.
The wizard who lives by the coast mentions scorching ray as part of the example. First ray, only. It's kinda unfair, since multiple melee attacks all count for sneak attack damage. I guess they just don't want people getting all crazy with it. If a rogue could get sneak attack damage with every bowshot, he wouldn't go near anybody. He'd hang back, hide or be invisible, and kill 2 or 3 (or more)mooks per round.
Wait, where in the rules does it say that Rogues only get 1 sneak attack per round on a ranged weapon? We're dealing with Paizo's RPG, not the Wizard's.
Wait, where in the rules does it say that Rogues only get 1 sneak attack per round on a ranged weapon? We're dealing with Paizo's RPG, not the Wizard's.
It applies to volley attacks, like manyshot, where you get more arrows than your BAB normally allows. The extra arrow, for example, doesn't give you extra sneak attack damage, but your other shots do.
I could have been clearer!
The poor AT only gets the slow BAB progression, so even when he can get a second shot with a bow, his odds of hitting on both attacks aren't so good. Better to just use scorching ray or something and get that range touch!
The point of limiting spells like Scorching Ray is to keep multiple sneak attack damage attempts to Full Attack actions. Scorching Ray is only a standard action to cast, and giving the rogue sneak attack with every Ray is quite powerful.
Imbalanced, in fact. A spell is indeed a standard action. if you want multiple sneak attacks with spells, you can still use quickened, or a rod of it, when you can afford it. That keeps you at 2 sneak attacks, but blasting spells usually do quite a bit of damage, so it's fair.
The AT, unlike the standard rogue, can't do melee for diddly squat.
The compensation comes from skill points. My 10th CL wiz AT is maxed-out in 9 skills, thanks to the new system, and a great int bonus. He's got ranks in 11 other skills, too. Not helpless if he has to swim, or speak a language, or bluff. He's not your daddy's 3.x AT!
The only skills he doesn't get as class skills are handle animal, heal, ride and survival.
He can sneak, tumble, disable devices, and do spellcraft as well as any rogue or wizard of his CL.
When the spells aren't doing it, he's got options. He's even got a rapier. That's just to look cool. Gods forbid he should have to use it, other than "wielding" it for the AC bonus (it's a defending weapon).
The AT's fixed. The problem remains being useful and surviving until you get into the class. A rogue3/wiz3 or sor4 is just not impressive to your fellow party members.
Well. I certainly don't think that the trickster should exceeed the mage in damage output. The class blends spellcasting and a skill monkey. He should't be better than specialists in either area, but he should be doing well in both areas, which he does IMO. He isn't a stright damage dealer and should't be that easier thank stright wizard to get there, just like he shouldn't be as good as the rogue in melee. Good at both, not excellent at either.Wait, he shouldn't be better at a Wizard at doing damage? Blasters who don't focus on AoE spells are undeniably inferior to nearly any other class (Including bard) who focuses on weapon damage. The only way a blaster can surpass a weapon user is to focus her damage on multiple targets. Now arcane tricksters gain poor BAB, no weapon proficiencies, and several abilities that tie their sneak attack damage to their magic. This, in and of itself, ranks them as arcane blasters. Because sneak attack requires an attack roll (except for their 1/day capstone) to be used, this means they have to use rays and touch attacks, which is exactly what it so inferior about casting blasters.
By saying that an arcane trickster, a character who sacrifices 3 caster levels to focus on single target damage and a larger skill list, should be inferior to pure wizards/sorcerers who choose to focus on blasting is basically invalidating the entire class. Woo, a few more skill points. Human Wizards have got that covered, thanks.
Arcane Tricksters are single target blasters with a good amount of skills. That's their niche.
One would think that wizard thief is their niche. Human wizard is still a spellcaster, but this bastard should be able to sneak around, disable traps, breaking through magical and mundane obstacles alike and doing wizard and rogue thingies around. The fact that he can deal damage should't be the only thing to consider. It's a mixed class and it works like that.
Ranged touch attacks, obviously...
I think it awsers the OP question.
One would think that wizard thief is their niche. Human wizard is still a spellcaster, but this bastard should be able to sneak around, disable traps, breaking through magical and mundane obstacles alike and doing wizard and rogue thingies around. The fact that he can deal damage should't be the only thing to consider. It's a mixed class and it works like that.
An interesting exercise would be to design a way to protect the crown jewels from a 20th level trickster who wanted to steal them.
You'd have to cover a lot of bases!
Yes the damage is interesting, but lets not forget that wonderful ranged legerdemain, the tricky spell ability, and the ability to turn invisible (highly useful) in addition to those skill points.
As everyone has said: Get invisible (via improved Invisibility, regular invisibility, or your class abilities) and sneak-touch the heck out of the bastards.
Be sure to get Practised Spellcaster (the feat from the Complete... books) or Magical Knack (the trait from the Character Traits free PDF) to be as close to full caster level as possible.
At level 11, the wizard 11's scorching ray would do 12d6 (maximum)
The wizard 3 / rogue 3 / arcane trickster 5 (with Magical Knack)'s scorching ray would do 8d6 plus 5d6. That's 13d6! With Practised Spellcater, or with Magical Knack and on level 12, it would be 17d6!
Sure, the rogue can have many, many attacks, but you can have attacks that ignore most of the target's AC - so they're more likely to hit - and those attacks deal more damage than an individual rogue's. And the rogue has to hit with all those attacks. He has to get all those attacks to begin with. You retain mobility.
I 've heard of the character trait before, but I haven't seen it. Which PDF is it in? Is there a character traits PDF that I missed somewhere?
EDIT: looked but didn't find. Shucky darn-darn!
Edit: Did find! +2 caster level, and a trait is not a feat, right? Hello, 1 extra magic missile!
If your GM allows it, the Practiced Spellcaster feat will give you up to 4 extra caster levels if you multiclass, but it's not core. I'll settle for the MK trait, then.
By 16th level, you will have something like a wand of empowered scorching ray, which averages 63 points of damage per charge without sneak attack. And you can sneak attack with it. Ouch! Plus, that wand gives you 3 to hit chances, any of which can add sneak attack if you are attacking from surprise (most DM's will only let you add your sneak attack damage once per casting though).Wizard spells more than make up for your poor attack bonus. By 16th level will have a high dexterity (20-26), and that gives you another +5-+8. Also, you will be invisible (w/nondetection), flying, and likely to have d-doored into an opportune and unexpected sniping position.
Until a person has actually run a high level arcane caster, they often under estimate how well spell casting ability makes up for low hit points and BAB.
It's a great class at high levels. It's levels 1-6 or 7 that are kinda weak. The aspiring trickster will pay some dues.
As discussed before, you only add SA damage once to a spell attack. While you roll to hit 3 times, your spell is a standard action, not a full attack.
Even with that, it's pretty darn good.
How I went with it (we are doing an accelerated practice run) was:
Diviner 1 Rogue 1, Diviner 2, Rogue 2, Arcane Trickster x.
I used Chill touch a lot since at low levels you have more ability to go toe to toe due to mage armor and shield and it is easier to get flanking with chill touch than with a ranged spell (plus the extra rounds of uses and strength damage are nice perks). Ghoul Touch hit my spells to be memorized too since paralysis means they can be sneak attacked, plus it can sicken their allies (another perk). By level 6 I had chill touch doing 3d6 as a touch attack, good skills and initiative, evasion, and decent HP (mirror image was another friend of mine). Once I got my second level of Arcane Trickster vampiric touch, blink and more fun kept things going, and I started to stand off more.
Umm, I'm pretty sure that it has been well established in fiction that dishonest household servants or exotic lovers with no magical skills have little problem with obtaining such jewels, so such an exercise is likely to prove well within the powers of an arcane trickster of any level in my opinion. ;)
Yes, there are many heist stories. Keeping an AT away would require very strong magical and non-magical precautions.
I 've heard of the character trait before, but I haven't seen it. Which PDF is it in? Is there a character traits PDF that I missed somewhere?
EDIT: looked but didn't find. Shucky darn-darn!
Edit: Did find! +2 caster level, and a trait is not a feat, right? Hello, 1 extra magic missile!
If your GM allows it, the Practiced Spellcaster feat will give you up to 4 extra caster levels if you multiclass, but it's not core. I'll settle for the MK trait, then.
Traits aren't core either. Since trait bonuses stack you can actually use both this and practiced spellcaster if your GM looks the other way ;)