Poison DC increases on a PASSED save?


Rules Questions


Does the DC go up if on 1st round get hit by say 3 spiders but pass check, then get hit once next round, are those 3 hits still in your system???

Scarab Sages

Assuming all the poisons are the same type, no. Once a person has made their save, all current poison of that type in their body is removed and any new poison resets at the default DC.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

Paizo Employee Director of Games

Nethys is correct.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Nethys is correct.

Please! Do NOT encourage him! He already thinks he's a god... what next?

No good can possibly come of this!


Maybe Nethys can be the new "Sage" for a "Ask the Sage" area.

I'd be up for that. :o)

Scarab Sages

Indeed.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys


Tackles Nethys, cuddling him in a strangely comforting and paternal way.

GEORGE!! I will wuv him and hug him and pet him ... rocks back and forth cuddling Nethys


hmm ok thanks Jason but how can poisons be deadlier in PF then?

In 3.5 you got to make 2 saves pri and sen that did stat dmg and you had to make a save for each hit that did the same dmg again.

IN PF you take 1/2 the dmg over a many of rounds(which adds up to to a max dmg of the same but more min dmg IF you fail every save) but in most cases 1 save stops it. If you get hit twice you dont take dmg again

I dont see how this makes poisons more deadly maybe i am missing something


Pathos wrote:
Maybe Nethys can be the new "Sage" for a "Ask the Sage" area.

Please, no. One official source of rules clarifications is enough, thank you.


hogarth wrote:
Pathos wrote:
Maybe Nethys can be the new "Sage" for a "Ask the Sage" area.
Please, no. One official source of rules clarifications is enough, thank you.

Is there one such source?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

So I didn't even notice the bit about poison stacking, but it leaves me wonder when you apply the first saving throw vs the poison, and I couldn't find it in the PRD?

So in the PRD the example is a character gets 3 doses of spider poison and now has a DC 18 instead of 14 check for the next 8 rounds. But that one good save is all he needs to escape it.

I've always assumed for poisons that don't have an onset the character makes the save at the time the poison is injected. So 3 attacks that poison == 3 saves, each one at DC 14. Then I would apply the 1 check higher DC the following round. Am I wrong, or should I wait until the players turn, and then have him make 1 save for all the poisons (of the same type) currently coursing through his system?

As the DM I like the later, because it makes poisons much deadlier. It is easy for my Fighter to make 3 DC 14 fort saves, but a single DC 18 save is a little riskier.

Really augments the risk of that drow poison when you are hit by 4 bolts at once :)

Grand Lodge

wrathgon wrote:

hmm ok thanks Jason but how can poisons be deadlier in PF then?

In 3.5 you got to make 2 saves pri and sen that did stat dmg and you had to make a save for each hit that did the same dmg again.

IN PF you take 1/2 the dmg over a many of rounds(which adds up to to a max dmg of the same but more min dmg IF you fail every save) but in most cases 1 save stops it. If you get hit twice you dont take dmg again

I dont see how this makes poisons more deadly maybe i am missing something

Its not just the effects of the poison that makes them more deadly - its also how they are managed with other abilities and skills.

Heal Skill now only provides a character with a +4 save bonus. in the SRD the character would take the healers skill check in place of his save if higher.
With a healers kit a 1st level 18 wis cleric with 4 ranks in heal is providing an average saving throw of 20 against most poisons. given that most poisons are dealt with after combat (thanks to the 1 minute offset time of secondary damage) a character can simply take 10 which makes most poisons trivial.

A flat +4 means that even a 2nd level paladin with 18 wis and 18 cha with his +11 fort save is still gonna risk failing with a 1-4 with help from a successful heal check.

The same goes for things like neutralize poison - the spell doesnt automatically work anymore and requires a caster check to be successful.

The frequency is a nice boost on characters that flaunt the dangers of poison...

Deathblade (SRD 3.5)
Injury DC 20
1d6 Con
2d6 Con

Deathblade (Pathfinder)
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 20
Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Effect 1d3 Con damage; Cure 2 consecutive saves

If you ignore poisons as a threat Deathblade has a potential of dealing 18 points of con damage however the minimum damage (assuming failed saves) from 3.5 is 3 while in pathfinder its 6. Not only that, most poisons in Pathfinder will have to be dealt with during combat.
For example -
(3.5) a fighter takes a deathblade poison in round 1 from a hidden assassin, fails his save and takes 4 points of con damage. the fight continues and in 7 rounds the fight is over, the cleric moved over and takes a 10 to heal the fighter automatically making the secondary save. (total con damage 4 - number of saves unassisted 1)
(Pathfinder) a fighter takes a deathblade poison in round 1 from a hidden assassin, fails his save and takes 2 points of con damage, on the second round he fails again taking 3 points, he passes his save on the 3rd round but fails again on the 4th taking 2 points of con, on round 5 he fails again for 3 more con damage and on round 6 passes his save at the end of the poisons effect. (total con damage 10 - number of saves unassisted 6)

A Pathfinder fighter would be cursing the cleric for not taking a neutralise poison or delay poison spell (if available) or would have to find time out during the combat to get to the cleric and recieve a heal check bonus.

Grand Lodge

Galnörag wrote:
So I didn't even notice the bit about poison stacking, but it leaves me wonder when you apply the first saving throw vs the poison, and I couldn't find it in the PRD?...

Posions are generally dealt with at the end of the combat round;

In the case of 3 spiders at the end of the round 1 save is all thats required where as previous versions would require you to make 3 saves at 14 each. With the example of the drow poison however the poison has a 1 minute offset time. at the end of the round that the poor character was struck by 4 poisoned bolts his single save would be at 19. If he fails the initial save he falls unconscious, 1 minute later if he fails again at DC 19) he will remain unconscious for 2d4 hours

Scarab Sages

Typically, poison saves are made the instant the target has been poisoned. In the case of multiple monsters going on the same initiative, it is recommended you wait until all have attacked (and possibly hit) before rolling for their poison.

This was clarified in a bit more detail in this thread.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys


Edit: Thanks Nethys... that's my general assumption, but I haven't seen it from the dragon's mouth, so to speak.

Quijenoth wrote:
Galnörag wrote:
So I didn't even notice the bit about poison stacking, but it leaves me wonder when you apply the first saving throw vs the poison, and I couldn't find it in the PRD?...
Posions are generally dealt with at the end of the combat round;

While that's an interesting idea (and could allow a PC an extra round to act before poison hits), I haven't ever seen it in rules.

This really is the big question for me - when does the pc make that initial save (which avoids all future saves if made).

  • After each attack that has poison? [Thus 1 save/hit]
  • After each creature that poisons you? [1 save/creature-hit]
  • At the beginning of PC's next turn after being poisoned? [1 save/poison-type]
  • At end of PC's next turn? [1 save/poison-type]
  • End of round (this would be a bit silly with 3rd edition type rounds)
  • Etc.

    Example:Spiders A, B, and C ambush Harsk
    All surprise him, but only C hits.
    Next round:
    B&C beat Harsk's Initiative and hit.
    Harsk kills B.
    A hits.
    3rd round:
    C hits.
    Harsk cleaves and kills both.

    Assuming Harsk fails all saves, when would he make them, and what would the DC be?


  • Quijenoth wrote:
    If you ignore poisons as a threat Deathblade has a potential of dealing 18 points of con damage however the minimum damage (assuming failed saves) from 3.5 is 3 while in pathfinder its 6.

    Assuming all failed saves skews the analysis, especially givien the sheer number of saves you're allowed in Pathfinder. In 3.5, you needed 2 successful saves to avoid all effects; that still holds true in Pathfinder. The only difference is that in Pathfinder, although the effects accrue faster on failed saves, you get a lot more chances to ameliorate the worst of the effects: even if you fail the second save, you get a 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th save for reduced damage.

    Deathblade poison in Pathfinder is faster but weaker.

    Scarab Sages

    The problem with having poison saves be made anytime other than when they are inflicted (which is the RAW way as most are instantaneous) is that it gives time for a Cleric, Druid, or any other healer to possibly negate the poison before it even gets a chance to do damage.

    Pathfinder's goal was to make poisons more deadly, not less so. I would recommend sticking with rolling against them immediately, unless multiple poison users go on the same initiative count (which often happens since DMs will usually roll for groups of the same type of monster at once). Then wait until all guys on the same init have gone before you check for the poison DC and such.


    While that makes sense, it changes the odds in many ways, simply dependent on how the DM rolls initiative (by group or individuals).

    All things considered, I think I'll run it like this:

    1. At every instance of being poisoned, make a saving throw (regular DC).

    2. As soon as one is failed, it deals damage and the rest stack up per the multiple dose rules.

    3. At the end of the player's next turn, he makes a save against the accumulated poisons' DC. If made, no damage, counts towards cure (if more than 1 save).

    4. Any further poisonings, while poisoned, stack on top as per multiple doses.

    The key here is that as soon as one poison works, you lose the chance to prevent the rest from hitting.

    My previous example:
    Spiders A, B, and C ambush Harsk
    Surprise round:
    C hits - DC 14 save fails, Harsk takes damage.
    Next round:
    B&C beat Harsk's Initiative and hit - no save made.
    Harsk kills B, then DC 18 save fails (3 doses), takes single damage.
    A hits. - no save*
    3rd round:
    C hits. - no save*
    Harsk cleaves and kills both, then makes DC 22 save.

    *: If Harsk had succeeded at the previous save, he would make a DC 14 save here.

    Scarab Sages

    That is very likely how the RAW intends it as well. My suggestion is most likely a house rule, though it does follow an example I saw concerning 3 spiders...somewhere... I think it was the book but it may have been elsewhere.


    Another Question: What is it, how does it apply, when is it applied to Secondary effects of poisons.


    Abraham spalding wrote:
    Another Question: What is it, how does it apply, when is it applied to Secondary effects of poisons.

    what is "it"? (or is that your question?)

    The multiple-dose rule is actually only defined for secondary effects (though it reads as applies to both) - any identical poisons do not deal multiples of damage or require multiple saves, but a single save at +2/each additional dose(/injury/bite/etc.), and lasts 50% longer/dose.

    KK: the three spiders example is in the book under poisons, but it doesn't talk the initial bites.


    Majuba wrote:
    Abraham spalding wrote:
    Another Question: What is it, how does it apply, when is it applied to Secondary effects of poisons.

    what is "it"? (or is that your question?)

    The multiple-dose rule is actually only defined for secondary effects (though it reads as applies to both) - any identical poisons do not deal multiples of damage or require multiple saves, but a single save at +2/each additional dose(/injury/bite/etc.), and lasts 50% longer/dose.

    KK: the three spiders example is in the book under poisons, but it doesn't talk the initial bites.

    Secondary effects of the poisons Majuba. say like Drow poison. It has a secondary effect listed. Is that in addition to the original effect, is that if the save is made, does it require another save?

    It doesn't state anything about the secondary effects of poisons other than some of them have one.


    I feel confused now.

    Mr wizard gets bitten by a phase spider. For the purpose of this thread we will say it does 1d4 strength damage for 6 rounds with a DC of 18

    What happens if he fails the first two rounds and succeeds on the third?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------

    Question two: A poison might be 0/unconscious or -/unconscious.

    Does anyone even make a save on the first round one, and if so why?


    Abraham spalding wrote:

    Secondary effects of the poisons Majuba. say like Drow poison. It has a secondary effect listed. Is that in addition to the original effect, is that if the save is made, does it require another save?

    It doesn't state anything about the secondary effects of poisons other than some of them have one.

    Ah, I understand now.

    Secondary effects are simply when the effects of an affliction (like poison) are not the same after the initial effect.

    So a poison (or other affliction) might do 1d2 Wis damage as it's initial damage, and then do 1d3 Cha damage on subsequent failed saves.

    Or it could just do 1 point of Con damage every failed save, and wouldn't have a secondary effect listed.

    Essentially, secondary effects replace the initial effect on subsequent failed saves. An affliction without a secondary effect will simply have Effect:, while one that does will have Initial Effect: and Secondary Effect:. It isn't an *additional* effect.

    If you make the initial saving throw for any affliction, you do not incur any additional effects (secondary or otherwise).


    concerro wrote:
    I feel confused now.

    Don't feel bad, so was I until earlier today.

    concerro wrote:

    Mr wizard gets bitten by a phase spider. For the purpose of this thread we will say it does 1d4 strength damage for 6 rounds with a DC of 18

    What happens if he fails the first two rounds and succeeds on the third?

    Assuming it is a "Cure: 1 save" poison (as most are), he won't take damage that round, and he will no longer be poisoned (at least by phase spider poison).

    It if was "Cure: 2 saves", he would take no damage, and make a save the next round. If that succeeded, he would no longer be poisoned. If it failed, he'd be back to his starting point (though the duration might be running out).

    concerro wrote:

    Question two: A poison might be 0/unconscious or -/unconscious.

    Does anyone even make a save on the first round one, and if so why?

    Yes indeed! This would be very important.

    Any time, for any affliction (poison/curse/disease), if you make the initial save, you do not gain the affliction at all, preventing any further affects.

    This makes 0/unconscious type poisons both a bit weaker, and *MUCH* more sinister. Fewer of them will have a chance of affecting a PC, but when nothing happens after failing the save, there is a good chance the PC won't bother to have the poison treated. If you build up say, 6 poison doses, the DC to avoid the unconsciousness will be at +10!

    Grand Lodge

    Majuba wrote:

    While that's an interesting idea (and could allow a PC an extra round to act before poison hits), I haven't ever seen it in rules.

    Sorry for the confusion, I should have said what I generally do is deal with poisons at the end of the round.

    However I don't allow the actions of subsequent rounds to prevent/delay the initial effect. for example a delay poison will still deal the initial damage at the end of the round before it suspends the poison. The exception to this rule for me is save modifying abilities, if someone cast resistance on the character after the spiders bit the character he would make a fort save with the bonus from the resistance spell.

    The other exception to this rule is afflictions that do direct HP damage. those I deal with imediately as they are far less disruptive to the combat round compared to ability damage.

    Grand Lodge

    Majuba wrote:


    It if was "Cure: 2 saves", he would take no damage, and make a save the next round. If that succeeded, he would no longer be poisoned. If it failed, he'd be back to his starting point (though the duration might be running out).

    Not 100% correct

    Cure: 2 saves is the total amount of saves the character needs to make to end the effect.

    Cure: 2 consecutive saves means that the character must succeed on a second save directly after the first on the following round.


    wow thanks guys for all this.

    i still feel poisons are lacking something, i think i will have the higher DCs stay for the 1 base duration(be it round/min ect) of the poison even if they pass.


    Quijenoth wrote:
    Majuba wrote:


    It if was "Cure: 2 saves", he would take no damage, and make a save the next round. If that succeeded, he would no longer be poisoned. If it failed, he'd be back to his starting point (though the duration might be running out).

    Not 100% correct

    Cure: 2 saves is the total amount of saves the character needs to make to end the effect.

    Cure: 2 consecutive saves means that the character must succeed on a second save directly after the first on the following round.

    You are completely correct. While the majority of multiple save cures are consecutive, the language is required.

    Funny enough.. I think that was my suggestion when we beta-tested the poison rules... hmm, yep, sorta.

    Scarab Sages

    Hey Majuba, shoot me an email at karuikage@karuikage.net sometime. Had a question for ya. :)


    How does these rules interact with the spell delay poison?

    For example, lets say I go tromping though a nest of small centipedes.
    (Fort DC 11, 1 dex for 2 rounds)

    I get bit 15 times, but have a delay poison running.

    When the spell wears off, am I staring down the barrel of a DC 39 save for 16 rounds?

    That just doesn't seem right to me.


    Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm having a hard time interpreting the poison rules.

    From the Core Rulebook:

    "Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once. Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative"

    Please tell me how an injury poison, which cannot inflict more than one dose at a time, can have additional doses that extend the duration and worsen the save?

    Then tell me how an inhaled poison can have multiple doses, and how that plays out with the extended duration and worsen saves?

    We got attacked by Giant Spiders and Ettercaps. We were making saves versus two kinds of poison from multiple attacks, and it got crazy. I guess I got hung up on the sentance "Poisons delivered by injury...cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time." It kind of makes the rest of this more confusing.


    erithil wrote:

    Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm having a hard time interpreting the poison rules.

    From the Core Rulebook:

    "Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once. Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative"

    Please tell me how an injury poison, which cannot inflict more than one dose at a time, can have additional doses that extend the duration and worsen the save?

    I think it is saying, a single attack cannot inflict more than one dose at a time. As in, you cannot load your dagger with 2 doses of poison, and then deliver those on an attack, but if you were to be attacked by two assailants with a dose of the same poison on their blades, and they both hit you, you would have two doses to contend with.

    Edit: Now that I go back and read that section, I kinda get what you are saying, but look at the example further down the page with the spiders, it should help clarify.


    Best explanation for this. . . here.

    If you have trouble finding something via the search, google is often pretty good.


    Yes, I agree that the later example is clear. But that example doesn't correlate to the verbage at the beginning of the poison section, hence my confusion. As an editorial comment, I am not sure why injested and inhaled poison needs to be different than contact and injury poison.

    EDIT: Thanks for the google link. I actually googled this topic but I didn't find the one you linked, so it is off to research for me :)


    Snakey wrote:

    Edit: Now that I go back and read that section, I kinda get what you are saying, but look at the example further down the page with the spiders, it should help clarify.

    I think the question is if this is what how injury poisions are handled, then how are inhaled/ingested ones handled?

    Also does the portion of the rule, "Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative," only apply to injury/contact ones? There is no qualifier, so it just adds confusion.


    erithil wrote:
    Yes, I agree that the later example is clear. But that example doesn't correlate to the verbage at the beginning of the poison section, hence my confusion. As an editorial comment, I am not sure why injested and inhaled poison needs to be different than contact and injury poison.

    With injested or inhaled poisons, the poisoner could pack the food/drink/air delivery method with double the dose (or more) but putting in or setting it up with more of the poison substance. Consume the same amount of poisoned wine with 2x the dose of poison and you injest twice the poison.

    Other methods of poison delivery, injury and contact, aren't quite as easily manipulated by the poisoner. The best bet there is simply to find a more potent poison in the first place.


    Bill Dunn wrote:


    With injested or inhaled poisons, the poisoner could pack the food/drink/air delivery method with double the dose (or more) but putting in or setting it up with more of the poison substance. Consume the same amount of poisoned wine with 2x the dose of poison and you injest twice the poison.

    That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

    At some point that drink is less of a goblet of wine with a bit of poison in it and more of a goblet of poison with a bit of wine in it. If I can put 2 doses of poison in food/drink, I can put 10 doses, or 20 doses. This must be where a game master's judgment comes in since there surely are no core rules covering it. When the taste/smell is so nasty and foul that it no longer something 'laced' with poison but instead like eating or drinking a venom sac.

    Thanks all for helping me understand poison better!

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