My rationale for posting this is a twofold complaint about the Monk class: in my opinion, the monk special weapons stink on ice & the class lacks the versatility of many other classes.
I'm posting a chain of feats that should allow a weapon wielding monk to be more dangerous than an unarmed one at any level. Being able to wield a weapon of your choice, and treating it as a monk special weapon is also part of this feat chain (it takes one or two more feats).
Since having relatively low level monks flurry of blows with greatswords, could unbalance the game, i am adding a few rules to the class regarding flurry of blows with (non-dual) two handed weapons- in short, at low levels your flurry of blows will be unarmed strikes and you simply hold your two hander while flurrying.
The feats-Weapon Focus, Weapon Proficiency (simple or martial) plus:
Perfect Wield ( Arcane Strike for monks) - you deal +1 damage with any monk special weapon. For every 5 monk levels you posess, this damage bonus increases by +1.
Prereq = Monk lvl 1
Harmonic Wield (Greater Weapon Focus for monks) - you can form a bond with single weapon you possess, that is of a type that you have Weapo Focus'ed. You gain +1 att with this weapon and can use it to make Ki strikes.You can only have a single bonded weapon at a time, but forming a bond with a new weapon only requires 1 week cloistered with the weapon, with no other people or weapons around.
Prereq = Monk lvl 4, Weapon Focus
Great Weapon Harmony (Weapon Specialization for monks)- you deal +2 damage with your bonded weapon. If your bonded weapon is a two handed weapon, you make the full number of unarmed strikes while making a two handed weapon flurry with it.
Prereq = Monk lvl 10, Harmonic Wield
Master Stroke - when you hit with your bonded weapon, as a swift action you may spend a ki point to add your monk level to the damage of that attack. Once you have damaged a target in this manner, you cannot deal extra damage with Master Stroke to that target again for 24 hours.
Prereq = Monk lvl 16, Harmonic Wield
Expanded Prowess- choose a simple or martial weapon that you are proficient with. That weapon is considered to be a monk special weapon for you.
Prereq = Monk lvl 1
Two handed weapon and flurry of blows
For reasons of play balance, I am against using (non-dual) two handed weapons in a normal flurry of blows. At low levels, a monk can do normal full round attacks w/ a two handed weapons, or an unarmed flurry of blows while still holding their two handed weapon. If they spend a ki point to gain an extra attack during a normal flurry, the extra attack may be made with their weapon.
At 11th level (or 10th with the Great Weapon Harmony feat), a monk can make a Two Handed WeaponFlurry as a full round attack.. The monk uses his non flurry BAB to determine his weapon attacks. Additional attacks at highest BAB normally granted by flurry of blows, must be unarmed strikes. Unless the monk has the Great Weapon Harmony feat and is wielding his/her bonded weapon, the monk gets one less additional attack from this flurry.
I hope the above guidelines are understandable. Please post any questions or comments.
Two handed weapon and flurry of blows
For reasons of play balance, I am against using (non-dual) two handed weapons in a normal flurry of blows. At low levels, a monk can do normal full round attacks w/ a two handed weapons, or an unarmed flurry of blows while still holding their two handed weapon. If they spend a ki point to gain an extra attack during a normal flurry, the extra attack may be made with their weapon.At 11th level (or 10th with the Great Weapon Harmony feat), a monk can make a Two Handed WeaponFlurry as a full round attack.. The monk uses his non flurry BAB to determine his weapon attacks. Additional attacks at highest BAB normally granted by flurry of blows, must be unarmed strikes. Unless the monk has the Great Weapon Harmony feat and is wielding his/her bonded weapon, the monk gets one less additional attack from this flurry.
I hope the above guidelines are understandable. Please post any questions or comments.
I don't see what the balance issue is.
In example:
A 1st level human fighter, Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, int, wis, cha 10 each with weapon focus (greatsword), power attack, and cleave.
Vs
A 1st level human monk, Str 13, Dex 14, con 10, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 10 with weapon proficiency (greatsword) and the feat you have to make it a monk weapon and dodge.
On a standard attack action:
Fighter: +4 to hit, 2d6+3, plus an additional attack at +4 if the attack hits (no power attack)
Monk: +1 to hit, 2d6+1 damage.
On a Full Attack (Monk flurries)
Fighter: same as above
Fighter (power attack): +3 to hit, 2d6+4, Plus an additional attack at +3 if the attack hits for 2d6+4
Monk: +0/+0 to hit, for 2d6+1 damage.
I'm not seeing the imbalance being in favor of the monk. If anything, at first level, its a massive penalty using the feats you made for weapons a monk doesn't start with proficiency in (mechanically, in flavor, its great, bit steep of a cost though.) At higher levels, its even worse, because as is stated in the flurry rules, even using a weapon two handed, the monk only adds his strength bonus to flurry attacks, not Str x 1.5.
Otherwise...the higher level feats seem pretty cool...the gateway feat seems...bleh. Might want to change it to: Gains proficiency in a weapon and may treat it as a monk weapon. Otherwise, is painful to be a non-human monk (excepting Elves I supposes.)
@ monk by many names & Krigare- thank you for posting and letting me know what you think. I am taking a second look at the details of what I posted and I think some small changes need to be made. I hope you come back and check it out.
First off, I have a printout of some sections of the Pathfinder beta- including the class descriptions, which I used when I came up with this idea. I find it hard to think creatively sitting in front of a computer screen. I have since taken a closer look at how flurry of blows works in the final pathfinder rules (from PRD), and think I should alter how two handed weapon flurry works, or make it clearer.
Also, I agree with Krigare that Str x 3/2 should be used for two handed weapon damage. I hadn't even thought about that when I wrote the guidelines for two handed weapon flurry.
I want to shorten the feat chain needed for a weapon monk so I propose re-wording the Expanded Prowess feat so that it applys to any weapon type the Monk is proficient in, and add one more feat:
Preferred Instrument- choose a simple or martial weapon type. You gain proficiency with that weapon type, and that weapons type is considered to be a special monk weapon for you. A monk of any level may select this feat as a bonus feat. This feat may only be taken once.
Prereq= Monk lvl 1
I don't want to go overboard and overpower these feats. So let me know what you think.
All of the feats I posted should be available as bonus feats, if the monk meets the prerequisites, I just forgot to mention that before.
I have a question, is there any way I can edit my older posts? because I don't see an option to do it for the first three I posted in this thread.
As far as the two handed weapon flurry goes, I know it would be far simpler to simply let a monk flurry with any weapon he chooses, and follow the same rules regardless. However, it just seems overpowering to me for a monk to get so many attacks with a high damage weapon, combined with the attack and damage bonuses from the feats, on top of all the other monk abilities.
Having said that, my new guidelline for a two handed weapon flurry is that you use the Flurry of Blows attack bonuses. The first attack of each iteration can be either a weapon attack or an unarmed strike, the second attack of each iteration must be an unarmed strike. If you don't have the Great Weapon Harmony feat, you lose one attack at your lowest attack bonus. You can still substitute combat maneuvers (such as sunder, trip or disarm) for any of these attacks.
You add 3/2 Str bonus for melee weapon damage (unless weapon description contradicts this), and full Str bonus for unarmed strikes.If you expend a Ki point for an extra attack, you choose whether it is a weapon attack or an unarmed strike.
As far as the two handed weapon flurry goes, I know it would be far simpler to simply let a monk flurry with any weapon he chooses, and follow the same rules regardless. However, it just seems overpowering to me for a monk to get so many attacks with a high damage weapon, combined with the attack and damage bonuses from the feats, on top of all the other monk abilities.
Having said that, my new guidelline for a two handed weapon flurry is that you use the Flurry of Blows attack bonuses. The first attack of each iteration can be either a weapon attack or an unarmed strike, the second attack of each iteration must be an unarmed strike. If you don't have the Great Weapon Harmony feat, you lose one attack at your lowest attack bonus. You can still substitute combat maneuvers (such as sunder, trip or disarm) for any of these attacks.
You add 3/2 Str bonus for melee weapon damage (unless weapon description contradicts this), and full Str bonus for unarmed strikes.If you expend a Ki point for an extra attack, you choose whether it is a weapon attack or an unarmed strike.
Still seems like your penalizing the monk for using a two handed weapon...many of which aren't high damage weapons in the first place. Using the rules as stated for a flurry, you add str bonus to the attack, no matter how you wield it (main hand, off hand, two handed...or even between your toes) For a two handed weapon, that entails losig a certain amount of damage, based on your stength score (a point or two at low levels, at high levels, could be anywhere from 5 to 10 points, roghly, more if your strength started well above the normal range) The actual damage range on two of the two handed weapons in the base book are outside what is available on a one handed weapon, greatswords and great axes. It seems like it would be easier to exclude those two weapons if it bothers you that much, than it would be to nerf the other two handed weapons that aren't outside the range of one handed weapons. then you can avoid all the extra rules for two handed flurry entirely =)
Using the rules as stated for a flurry, you add str bonus to the attack, no matter how you wield it (main hand, off hand, two handed...or even between your toes) For a two handed weapon, that entails losig a certain amount of damage, based on your stength score
Let me try this one more time. My guideline is that you cannot make a 'flurry of blows' with a non-dual two handed weapon. You can make a 'two handed weapon flurry', which is similar, but follows the directions in my last post. Doing 3/2 Str damage with a two handed melee weapon is included in the directions. And I forgot to mention in that post, that there is no minimal level for performing one. Alternatively, you could do a normal flurry of unarmed attacks, while holding on to your two handed weapon.
If you realy think the class is better off letting a Monk flurry with a greatsword using the normal rules, than do it that way. As I have stated several times now, I think it overpowers the class a bit.
Using the rules as stated for a flurry, you add str bonus to the attack, no matter how you wield it (main hand, off hand, two handed...or even between your toes) For a two handed weapon, that entails losig a certain amount of damage, based on your stength scoreLet me try this one more time. My guideline is that you cannot make a 'flurry of blows' with a non-dual two handed weapon. You can make a 'two handed weapon flurry', which is similar, but follows the directions in my last post. Doing 3/2 Str damage with a two handed melee weapon is included in the directions. And I forgot to mention in that post, that there is no minimal level for performing one. Alternatively, you could do a normal flurry of unarmed attacks, while holding on to your two handed weapon.
If you realy think the class is better off letting a Monk flurry with a greatsword using the normal rules, than do it that way. As I have stated several times now, I think it overpowers the class a bit.
But what about longspears, falcions, scythes, guisarmes, or even just regular spears?
I don't see how allowing a flurry with any of those weapons is even comprable to a greatsword under those rules, yet in the real world, two of them are fairly common weapons to be used in martial arts.
Its why I said, just exclude Greatswords and greataxes from being allowed as monk weapons, and then your not having to rewrite any part of the flurry rules, nor are you penalizing a non-optimizer for a what shoudl be an interesting direction to take a character.
Its why I said, just exclude Greatswords and greataxes from being allowed as monk weapons, and then your not having to rewrite any part of the flurry rules, nor are you penalizing a non-optimizer for a what shoudl be an interesting direction to take a character.
In the PRD it states clearly that the extra attacks during a flurry of blows come from two weapon fighting. I don't see how getting all of your attacks with a two handed weapon, complies with that. None of the original special monk weapons are two handed weapons, except the quarterstaff which is a dual weapon.
By ruling out non-dual two handed weapons for a normal flurry of blows, I am complying with the class description. The Two handed flurry is like two weapon fighting. The two hander is one weapon, the unarmed strike is the other. I admit, this wasn't my original rationale for de-powering two handed weapon usage, but I still think it is the way to go.
In addition, ruling out specific weapons holds no appeal for me. The point of both of my threads on monk weapon fighting, is that monks ought to be able to effective at using any weapon.
I can see why you don't think greatswords/greataxes shouldn't work as the stand alones in a flurry. While it sounds very overpowered mechanically, if you run this scenario of a monk flurryig with a greatsword in your mind, it frankly doesn't seem like it'd work, given the sheer weight of the weapon and the number of attacks in a given flurry.
for a lvl 20 monk the # of attacks is 7. this would equate to 1 attak every .86 seconds, then adding a ki strike makes an 8th attack gives you an attack every .75 seconds, then a haste.... let's just say things get more and more unbalanced as you go on
I cannot see anyone making that many attacks with a greatsword in such a concise time frame.
guisarmes,scythes and other 2HW work just fine (except for maybe greataxes) so the only problem is a greatsword
but just for humor's sake if by some perversion of strength and plausibility, monks were allowed to flurry with greatswords they'd surely need to be fatigued for 1d4 round simply based on the physical exertion....
but anyways, you've got a good system going on here, keep it up
If it was the real world, I would have to agree. On the other hand...since we are talking about some place where (at 20th level) a guy can simply wish things different and a holy man can truely conjure a miracle when he needs one, is it really to much of a stretch to imagine that a guy devoted to using a greatsword can attack that fast?