Theres a debate going on in my game group regarding Magic Armor.
The rulebook states "When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldnt be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustible, or they adjsut themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various sizes from usign magic items".
Then it gives the percent chances of armor being various Sizes (as in Small, Medium, large, etc). This indicates that magic armor does not cross the Size boundaries (a Small suit of magic studdel leather is always going to be Small).
The problem is this; the one person in the group who has decided that armor is not a "garment", and does not magically re-size itself to a new wearer, also happens to be the guy who is GM'ing the current game. He has said that he thinks the wording is unclear, and is willing to go with an official ruling one way or the other on this.
So, can someone please give us an official ruling on this: Is armor a "garment" for the purposes of magical re-sizing, and does it re-size to fit a wearer comfortably who is of a significantly different build than the original wearer, within the same game-mechanical Size category.
In other words, if a Medium sized male Human Fighter character who is built like The Rock ( six foot four, 250 pounds or so)has some magic armor built for himself, if it is later handed to his friend the Medium-sized Elf Paladin who looks like Jennifer Love Hewitt(five foot two, 115 pounds or so), does it resize to fit her properly? Or does it stay far too large for her to even get buckled into, and would it then have to be resized by taking it to a blacksmith (which seems to me would run the risk of ruining the enchantments on it).
The rules only differentiate between the character size categories, and within each category one size fits all (medium size fits all medium size creatures regardless of build). Not necessarily realistic, but an abstraction in the rules for ease of game play. It allows characters to use items found on adventures immediately rather than having to have them fitted first.
Referencing your own example, a Medium sized male Human Fighter character who is built like The Rock ( six foot four, 250 pounds or so)and Medium-sized Elf Paladin who looks like Jennifer Love Hewitt(five foot two, 115 pounds or so)are effectively the same size as they are both Medium size creatures.
The rules make no differentiation between the them as far as size goes. If they did there would be elaborate sizing charts like we have for actual clothing referencing height, chest size, waist size, neck size, etc., and I have yet to see such in any rule book.
Actually, the rules do differentiate character builds within a single size category, at least for full plate:
Full Plate: This metal suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces.
That said, full plate is the only armor where this is mentioned as part of the description. As long as it wasn't full plate I would allow someone to wear magical armor made for someone else of the same size category at no penalty. The plate armor would need to be taken to a blacksmith.
As far as magical armors and resizing across size categories are concerned, I've always considered the term "garments" to only include soft cloth or leather clothing. Anything rigid enough to act as armor would be resistant to such resizing, unless enchanted specifically for that purpose; I recall a 3.5 armor special ability that allowed armor to resize in such a manner, which further supports the idea that magical armor doesn't do so normally.
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Theres a debate going on in my game group regarding Magic Armor.
The rulebook states "When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldnt be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustible, or they adjsut themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various sizes from usign magic items".
Then it gives the percent chances of armor being various Sizes (as in Small, Medium, large, etc). This indicates that magic armor does not cross the Size boundaries (a Small suit of magic studdel leather is always going to be Small).
The problem is this; the one person in the group who has decided that armor is not a "garment", and does not magically re-size itself to a new wearer, also happens to be the guy who is GM'ing the current game. He has said that he thinks the wording is unclear, and is willing to go with an official ruling one way or the other on this.
So, can someone please give us an official ruling on this: Is armor a "garment" for the purposes of magical re-sizing, and does it re-size to fit a wearer comfortably who is of a significantly different build than the original wearer, within the same game-mechanical Size category.
In other words, if a Medium sized male Human Fighter character who is built like The Rock ( six foot four, 250 pounds or so)has some magic armor built for himself, if it is later handed to his friend the Medium-sized Elf Paladin who looks like Jennifer Love Hewitt(five foot two, 115 pounds or so), does it resize to fit her properly? Or does it stay far too large for her to even get buckled into, and would it then have to be resized by taking it to a blacksmith (which seems to me would run the risk of ruining the enchantments on it).
Can someone official please answer this question of Magical Armor resizing or not. It has brought my game to a stop. I am afraid geeks might get hurt.
There are several ways to approach this.
1. RAW. If your a X size no matter what race, sex, height, etc armor made for X sized creatures fits.
2. Come up with some complex system which caters for different sizes for armor, rings, boots, gloves, etc.
3. Play the new PFRPG "Tailors and Seamstresses" an action packed role-playing game where *you* play the part of a Tailor!
Me I'd go for #1 and just have fun.
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There are several ways to approach this.
1. RAW. If your a X size no matter what race, sex, height, etc armor made for X sized creatures fits.
2. Come up with some complex system which caters for different sizes for armor, rings, boots, gloves, etc.
3. Play the new PFRPG "Tailors and Seamstresses" an action packed role-playing game where *you* play the part of a Tailor!Me I'd go for #1 and just have fun.
We did have fun. I did rule rather quickly on #1, as well but it did not stop the 30 minute tyrade that followed regardless of my plea to stop.
Wouldn't mind just having an official answer so I can throw in face and say HA! to at least one of them. Arguments like that just drain me.
So for no other reason answer my question Paizo out of shear revenge reasons. I am sure you guys at Paizo can get behind that, it does drive a good scenario.
We did have fun. I did rule rather quickly on #1, as well but it did not stop the 30 minute tyrade that followed regardless of my plea to stop.There are several ways to approach this.
1. RAW. If your a X size no matter what race, sex, height, etc armor made for X sized creatures fits.
2. Come up with some complex system which caters for different sizes for armor, rings, boots, gloves, etc.
3. Play the new PFRPG "Tailors and Seamstresses" an action packed role-playing game where *you* play the part of a Tailor!Me I'd go for #1 and just have fun.
Well the answer is in the rules, if its X sized armor and your PC is X size you can wear it. I think people will be waiting a long time for an "official" response.
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Well the answer is in the rules, if its X sized armor and your PC is X size you can wear it. I think people will be waiting a long time for an "official" response.We did have fun. I did rule rather quickly on #1, as well but it did not stop the 30 minute tyrade that followed regardless of my plea to stop.There are several ways to approach this.
1. RAW. If your a X size no matter what race, sex, height, etc armor made for X sized creatures fits.
2. Come up with some complex system which caters for different sizes for armor, rings, boots, gloves, etc.
3. Play the new PFRPG "Tailors and Seamstresses" an action packed role-playing game where *you* play the part of a Tailor!Me I'd go for #1 and just have fun.
That is the same way I interpreted the rule as well spacelord, and I am happy to see that we agree on this. However, as you may well know, some people are just not happy until they see it in writing, another bane of the rules killers...the phrase..."well it does not say you can not do it!".........aaaarrrgggghhhh........I hate the dross that some people try to call logic.
As you can tell I am frustrated. Which suck because I made a ruling, but it still brought the game to a halt as, the words "well in 3.5" and "it defeats the purpose" and "why doesn't everybody just make dimunitive armor because it would cost less" started flying around the room.
Meanwhile, I started packing up my stuff saying well I have to go now there was another encounter left for you guys in this place but we are out of time, sorry no level up this time.
Well the answer is in the rules, if its X sized armor and your PC is X size you can wear it. I think people will be waiting a long time for an "official" response.We did have fun. I did rule rather quickly on #1, as well but it did not stop the 30 minute tyrade that followed regardless of my plea to stop.There are several ways to approach this.
1. RAW. If your a X size no matter what race, sex, height, etc armor made for X sized creatures fits.
2. Come up with some complex system which caters for different sizes for armor, rings, boots, gloves, etc.
3. Play the new PFRPG "Tailors and Seamstresses" an action packed role-playing game where *you* play the part of a Tailor!Me I'd go for #1 and just have fun.
That is the same way I interpreted the rule as well spacelord, and I am happy to see that we agree on this. However, as you may well know, some people are just not happy until they see it in writing, another bane of the rules killers...the phrase..."well it does not say you can not do it!".........aaaarrrgggghhhh........I hate the dross that some people try to call logic.
As you can tell I am frustrated. Which suck because I made a ruling, but it still brought the game to a halt as, the words "well in 3.5" and "it defeats the purpose" and "why doesn't everybody just make dimunitive armor because it would cost less" started flying around the room.
Meanwhile, I started packing up my stuff saying well I have to go now there was another encounter left for you guys in this place but we are out of time, sorry no level up this time.
I feel your pain!
It is in the rules, the only exception is full plate. What people seem to be doing is bringing in their houserule to exclude it. You're the DM and as far as I'm conccerned *you* are the only one to bring in houserules.You could go the other way and insist on rolling on table 3.9 "Your shoes are too tight" or table 6.9/c "Loose Trousers" or say the magic from that Belt of Mighty has gone because the PC had to put an extra hole in it, you get the idea :)
Why the dislike for it anyway?
What is the problem with "medium" characters wearing "medium" armor?
"It doesn't say you can't in the rules" is the desperate last gasp and the last thing players say before I choke the life out of them!
Well the answer is in the rules, if its X sized armor and your PC is X size you can wear it. I think people will be waiting a long time for an "official" response.
Also note that the WEIGHT of armor doesn't change based on the body frame of the 'medium' sized individual, despite the fact that chainmail for the Rock should weigh more than chainmail for JL Hewett.
So medium = medium. Suffer and benefit equally, I guess.
Magical Armor re-sizes to fit characters of the same size category, regardless of their build, gender, etc. While 'Fullplate' seems to make an exception to this it is infact referring to non-magical armor, when it mentions the capturing and redesigning costs.
It states specifically under magical armor that it resizes to fit any wearer of the same size category, it does NOT mention Full Plate being an exception to this, because the magical re-sizing quality means the armor will adjust no matter the dimensions of the same size wearer who dons it next. ( A female character donning a suit of +1 Fullplate can wear it without complications, it will adjust to fit her just fine ). Otherwise the question begs, why doesnt other kinds of armor need some kind of adjustments?, a suit of Half Plate, or Scalemail is gender specific whereas Light Armor could be Unisex, if magical armor does infact resize then why does Full Plate count as an exception to the wording that specifically states ALL armor resizes to fit the same size wearer - not that most armor resizes to fit the wearer.
People are house-ruling that the description of Full Plate overrules the text about resizing magical armor. It doesnt, the non-magical effect (cost for resizing/redesigning it) stands if the armor is nonmagical or masterwork at best - if its magical, it will resize to fit anyone regardless of their dimensions as long as theyre the same size category.
Nowhere does it mention under magical armor resizing to fit a wearer that theres ANY material costs involved in the re-sizing, it happens automatically because its magical.