I'm not a big fan of adding loads of new classes to the game. If you go through all the splat books that wizards produced for 3.5 I always find the full classes to be specialised versions of the base classes and little more. What I’d prefer to see is additional feats that could be taken to make specialised versions of a class without the need to have whole new sets of class features. Examples might be a feat that allows you to add your intelligence to your damage rolls with light weapons that you have weapon finesse with a bit like the swashbuckler gets or variant class features similar to those in the Pathfinder campaign setting book (academy trained fighter or the cleric that has no domains but better BAB and HP) or like those found in Complete Champion. It be another way of having characters using the same class from being vastly different without having to produce endless new classes or gods help us the sea of prestige classes that you used to get in every book from wizards.
This said I would like to see Blackguard as a full class. If Paladins are the warriors of good and righteousness then surely there would be warriors of darker more downright unpleasant ideals.
I'm not a big fan of adding loads of new classes to the game. If you go through all the splat books that wizards produced for 3.5 I always find the full classes to be specialised versions of the base classes and little more. What I’d prefer to see is additional feats that could be taken to make specialised versions of a class without the need to have whole new sets of class features. Examples might be a feat that allows you to add your intelligence to your damage rolls with light weapons that you have weapon finesse with a bit like the swashbuckler gets or variant class features similar to those in the Pathfinder campaign setting book (academy trained fighter or the cleric that has no domains but better BAB and HP) or like those found in Complete Champion. It be another way of having characters using the same class from being vastly different without having to produce endless new classes or gods help us the sea of prestige classes that you used to get in every book from wizards.
This said I would like to see Blackguard as a full class. If Paladins are the warriors of good and righteousness then surely there would be warriors of darker more downright unpleasant ideals.
Totally agree with you and why I am cautious about it.
The new class count I think is 18 and PrC count 150 for 3.5. Totally unreasonable.
I have noticed that a lot of new class builds (or disagreements about) seem to revolve around oriental type classes.
Is it a cultural thing that (and I am making a HUGE assumption) western players see ninjas as something magical where a Japanese player might just go "Meh! Give me a Knight any day, they're cool"
With such a broad range of skills, feats, schools and domains available to the base classes, once the characters progress beyond fourth level or so, players have the ability and tendency to build their characters in a wide variety of ways, quite frequently taking their characters at least a little off the beaten path. Multiclassing alone makes for some very interesting and unique characters.
Since the notion of prestige classes was introduced (which actually goes back to some 1e variant classes, e.g. the Witch), I have known only a few (maybe two or three) players who have gone the prestige or variant class route (beyond experimenting) or used much of anything from the myriad splat books.
I think the best route is to stick with a reasonable set of base classes and provide each with a variety of customization options and guidelines/suggestions for likely paths of progression to explore. For all practical purposes, prestige classes are just such suggestions, albeit more formalized with specific requirements and benefits.
Instead of spending a lot of ink on class variants, I would prefer to see Paizo (and others) provide more adventures, monsters, opponents, challenges, stories, settings, maps, game aids (print and software), etc. - the stuff they already do so very well, just throttled up a notch.
The only base class I don't like is Scout. People keep saying I should play one... But I would rather play the CA ninja than the Scout.
The scout is really fun to play if you like lots of tactical movement in combat. I played one from level 1 to around 12 or 13, and it was a blast. For the majority of it, I was the primary tank (the rest of the party was an aristocrat/bard (with gnome cleric/rogue cohort) and a wizard/truenamer. Eventually, we got a paladin to tank for us.) That said, I don't think we need a Pathfinderized version of the scout, just Pathfinderize the skills and maybe update the bonus feat list and you're good to go.
I started playing a Pathfinderized ninja 3 in a Beta game. They're really fun too. Granted, mine is a dark whisper gnome, so I have Stealth up the wazoo and racial Hide in Plain Sight to boot (Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic)! The Pathfinderization of skills really helped! I was able to get all the skills I wanted, which I wouldn't have been able to do in 3.5.
This said I would like to see Blackguard as a full class. If Paladins are the warriors of good and righteousness then surely there would be warriors of darker more downright unpleasant ideals.
I think there should be holy warriors for any alignment/deity
I think there should be holy warriors for any alignment/deityThis said I would like to see Blackguard as a full class. If Paladins are the warriors of good and righteousness then surely there would be warriors of darker more downright unpleasant ideals.
I'm not so sure. A Paladin is the rather iconic white knight, and derives his power from following a code that exemplifies such traits. The bonuses and such that people get from following that code aren't to hard to codify, since its not a stretch to imagine lawful good dieties and powers agreeing on such broad things (the details they might argue about endlessly, but the broad stuff...not to hard). The other alignments, it would get a little dicey. Lawful Nuetral and Lawful Evil wouldn't be a stretch really, since its not to hard to imagine beings who have a focus on rigid structure imposing such a thing on their followers. The Nuetral alignments (good, nuetral and evil) would be really tricky...since these have a broad group of fairly divergent beliefs even amongst gods of the same alignment. The chaotic alignments...um...by their very nature, the gods of such probably aren't big on structure...
Um...so...yeah...
I might not have a problem with a blackgaurd class, as long as one importent aspect is kept in mind.
It's not a paladin.
Partly the reason why I cannot stand the "Paladin of Tyranny" class is that in terms of mechanics it's not really any different from a LG paladin.
Blackgaurds are evil, that means they can relay on undead, use poison, and fight with underhanded tactics. The mechanics should represent this. That's partly why I didn't mind it being a presitge class, because people would look at it and right away see a big mechanical difference between it and the paladin.
Besides, how you handle blackgaurds may vary from setting to setting. Personally, I think if a character is going to sell their soul and devote themselves to evil, their powers would be radically differnt from a paladins, more gratuitous with instant results. So somthing like a warlock-esc character may suit in some campaign settings, for others it might be somthing more akin to the assassin.
As for other classes, I don't personally mind certain classes like Knight or such, even if they can be covered by existing classes. I see alot of "Such classes can just be made into feat chains" and I can agree to an extent, but remember the same can be said for core classes.
For instance, I once saw someone remove the bard from their game completely. They kept the "Enchanting Music" role in via a different method. He added a handful of Metamagic feats which can boolster enchantmetns greatly, but required music. One, for instance, allowed a caster to cast spells like Charm person on anyone that can hear, rather than a single target. For the most part it seemed to work out.
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that hypotetically, any class can be turned into a feat chain. In fact, a system called the Generic Classes (from UA I beleive) was built of this assumption.
Admittily though, in some cases I can understand. I suppose it depends on how easily a class can be converted into a set of feats rather than a full blown class.
I'm intrigued by an anti-paladin class (and let's be honest, that's what the BG was most of the time), but I'm not sure what you could do, conceptually, to keep it fresh over 20 levels. Though, a reversed version of lay on hands (which could either heal self or harm others) or a vampiric touch power (which could have the reverse mechanic of mercies, leaving others shaken or fatigued) would probably be damned fun. Though, really, evil seems much more palpable on Golarion (ogres ogres ogres), so I want them to be a hell of a lot worse than "dudes in black armor with the reverse of paladin abilities". I want them to have mechanics that really support being a sick, nasty bastard. Go evil or go home (note: I'm not 100% sure how I'd do this, mechanically, but just harm touch isn't enough)
Dragon Shamans.
I loved the concept, I want to be able to have them work.
the best thing about them was that they were so different funtionally
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the best thing about them was that they were so different funtionallyDragon Shamans.
I loved the concept, I want to be able to have them work.
I made the mistake of turning one into the main tank. It was fun, but harrowing during battle. Of course this guy worshiped a black dragon, and slowly made his slide towards Chaotic Evil. SO, it make sense when he got disintegrated by the party Wizard, after attempting to kill a silver dragon and begin the dark work of freeing Tiamat.
the best thing about them was that they were so different funtionallyDragon Shamans.
I loved the concept, I want to be able to have them work.
The only major change I would make to dragon shamans is to increase their skill ranks per level to 4 + Int mod, and to make their list of class skills be identical to the list of class skills that dragons have. Maybe include a few more auras. And maybe equalize the draconic powers or whatever (I play a brass dragon shaman, and get endure elements...but adventure in a temperate zone where I will never really need it...)
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the best thing about them was that they were so different funtionallyDragon Shamans.
I loved the concept, I want to be able to have them work.
The only major change I would make to dragon shamans is to increase their skill ranks per level to 4 + Int mod, and to make their list of class skills be identical to the list of class skills that dragons have. Maybe include a few more auras. And maybe equalize the draconic powers or whatever (I play a brass dragon shaman, and get endure elements...but adventure in a temperate zone where I will never really need it...)
I'll admit breathe underwater was another one that didn't really help all that much. Its more useful I'll admit, but not in the same way something like a bonus feat or something could be.
I'll admit breathe underwater was another one that didn't really help all that much. Its more useful I'll admit, but not in the same way something like a bonus feat or something could be.the best thing about them was that they were so different funtionallyDragon Shamans.
I loved the concept, I want to be able to have them work.
The only major change I would make to dragon shamans is to increase their skill ranks per level to 4 + Int mod, and to make their list of class skills be identical to the list of class skills that dragons have. Maybe include a few more auras. And maybe equalize the draconic powers or whatever (I play a brass dragon shaman, and get endure elements...but adventure in a temperate zone where I will never really need it...)
This was another one that seemed too close to Sorcerer for my comfort, but that's just me. I'd personally like to see the class opened up to other entities, so dragon isn't the only focus and would fit better with PF.
Here are some more developed ideas for Inquisitor abilities, for how I'd invision such a class:
Sense Weakness: you get +1 to your damage for the purposes for bypassing DR only at 1st level and every other level after that. You only get this against Outsiders, Fey, Constructs, Dragons, Aberrations, Monsterous Humanoids, Giants, Undead,and Magical Beasts if you make an appropriate lore check at DC 10+CR(possibly + Cha) as a move action. This lasts for the encounter against the monster. If you are fighting your Order's foe and succeed in your Knowledge check you get to add damage equal to your level instead.
Order: You specialize in fighting a particular creature type (Angels, Demons, Undead, Dragons, etc.) or even groups (Humanoids, Nobles, Arcane Spellcasters). Your Order gives you bonus class skills, a Primary Lore you focus on, a symbolic weapon of the Order, and special abilities from training (haven't put too much thought into these).
Ancient Lore: Gain Int + 1/2 Inquisitor level. gain different powers as you advance such as being able to let allies benefit from Sense Weakness for a round, detecting monsters similar to Detect Magic or Evil, treating your Sense Weakness Damage as elemental versus creatures with vulnerabilities/regeneration, bypassing a type of DR (Silver, Good, etc), bonuses to Knowledge checks, etc.
Requisition: I was thinking of something to represent support from their order. I started it based off of borrowing a magic item of varying power for a short period of time, but it could also be used to get mundane equipment, minions, or even favors.
Order: You specialize in fighting a particular creature type (Angels, Demons, Undead, Dragons, etc.) or even groups (Humanoids, Nobles, Arcane Spellcasters). Your Order gives you bonus class skills, a Primary Lore you focus on, a symbolic weapon of the Order, and special abilities from training (haven't put too much thought into these).
I like that one a lot
The Swordsaint
A monastic weapon specialist who can infuse his signature weapon attacks with magic.
Cleric BAB and Saves.
Light armour prof.
Wis bonus to AC.
6+INT skills.
Spells: INT-based blade infusions prepared every day, drawn from a choice of 8-10 per spell level, eg Chill Touch, Flaming Blade, Magic Weapon, True Strike.
Personally, I'm in the variant class camp. I'm also in the '..a big fan of the Ad&d 2nd ed. kits..'-camp.
I like the fact that (for cleric kits) you'd 'specialize' in your chosen deity and get a couple of generic bonusses/powers, a bonus on spells - balanced with restrictions on spell selection. They differed between major and minor spheres where minor spheres only went to 3rd (?) level or so. So it basically added powers and narrowered the spell selection to add flavor. You'd have 2 entirely different clerics from different deities based of the core class. I'd also favor regional and organizational sourcebooks to include these variations as opposed to 'complete figther' type books (that should deal with new (fighter)feats, featchains, maneuvers, historical variants etc.).
I Also would like to see (again taking a deity as an example) different variants of _all_ the core classes under the diety's entry. Eg. Asmodeus (evil devil blah..) Worshippers as follows; Angerknight (Paladin variant), Legislate (Cleric variant), Harbringer (Monk variant) ..etc. (These names stolen purely because of failed imagination check! :/). These could be covered in regional books, introducing lots of flavor within the framework of the existing core classes, and at the same time introducing new spells, feats and weapons.
About Prestige Classes .. I do think they have a place. But I would like to see them more as very specific specializations, more than the variant-alternative-base class I feel it often is in 3.0/5. I actually think a prestige class should only be 5-lvl classes, lots of fluff and very specific. Ex. (Again using the concept descriped earlier - an entry under Asmodeus): Prestige Class - "High Magistrate ... Being chosen by Asmodeus to speak on his behalf at hearings and spread his word to the impure - you have been branded with his symbol on the neck..." There should be a level prereq (i'm thinking around 15'th) and perhaps some specific feats - but other than that none. BAB as previous class, some powers each level and perhaps bonus on spells with [evil] descriptor or such. I think that would be all flavour. Prestige classes I like are the 'discples..' etc. classes of the wotc devil-books.(EDIT: I know they are supposedly NPC-classes, but I like the fact they have clear purpose and excellent fluff..)
I hope some of the above makes sense - and please don't comment on my obvious lack of grammar ekspertise..
What say you?
/K
Here's the problem: Ideally, feats aren't whole new mechanics, they improve something that already exists or alter it in some way. Good feats interact with existing feats, existing mechanics, and existing classes. It's pretty hard to make a whole new class (and new mechanic) that interacts with existing feats, mechanics, and classes well.
I don't think this is true at all.
A feat CAN build on an existing mechanic (Turn Undead), or it can do something completely new (Wind Step). The same is true of a class feature, to exactly the same degree. Channel Energy is a completely new mechanic, for instance, while Favored Enemy builds on things a character can do already.
There are both pros and cons for completely fresh mechanics, and there are both pros and cons for those that build on existing mechanics. I'm not going to get too far into it because your previous posts lead me to believe you understand the advantages of both.
But, again, this isn’t the same as the debate of base classes vs other mechanics.
If it's just a feat or rogue ability, I can look at it, with a decent knowledge of what already exists and say yes or no. If it's a whole new class I have to go ahead and look through tuns and tons of stuff to make sure there's not some hidden problematic loophole.
You're comparing one apple to two oranges here.
Of course one feat is easier to judge than one core class. Core classes are big pieces of mechanics that make big changes; feats are small pieces of mechanics that make small changes.
I'm comparing a core class to an equalivant number of feats: i.e, a feat tree which could produce a character which can do the same sorts of things that the new base class could.
Honestly, in most cases, a feat chain simply can't do what a core class does. There's too much give-and-take. You can't take a feat to reduce your Sneak Attack progression to 1/3rd level. You can't take a feat to reduce your attack bonus but gain a slow arcane spellcasting progression instead.
But, conversely, there are times when a feat chain handles new mechanics better than a new core class. And that's totally cool. I'm not saying everything should be a base class; I'm saying that new base classes aren't any better or worse than new (any other mechanic)s. They're a better tool for some things and a worse tool for others.
I think you missed my point here. The concept of either feats or classes are pretty easy to grasp. I'm saying, in order to have an out of character understanding of the world, with some consistency, you should have an idea of all 11 classes. Not that surprises aren't good or interesting, but, if you've got 40 classes to figure out that all occur equally commonly, it will be daunting for a new player. (Example: Wizards do X. "Oh, ok, so you're a wizard, you do X right?". "no no, I'm a fire wizard from book Y. It's TOTALLLY different". I don't want to limit that other guy or confuse the new player.
Doesn’t this clarification defeat your original point?
I mean, since when does a new player have to understand “a fighter v a fighter/duelist v a swashbuckler” in order to understand the world? That distinction matters about as much as “Dodge vs Combat Expertise”. All a new player has to know is that there are dudes swinging from masts holding their swords in their teeth.
You need no such understanding of feats to get a feel for the world.
Not true either. Suppose we introduce something like ostiomancers: mystical alchemists who draw great power from the bones and teeth of magical creatures, who play a big roll in the world.
Representing those powers with feats doesn’t make it any easier or harder to get a feel for the world than doing so with a core class. Or a prestige class. Or a variant class. "Understanding the world" simply means understanding that there are ostiomancers.
Understanding a world means understanding that there are assassins using dark magic to sneak around. It doesn’t matter whether that’s a ninja core class or a Shadow Step feat chain.
Understanding a world means understanding that the Godking’s war-mages are badasses who hurl fireballs while wearing armor. It doesn’t matter whether they’re “warmage” variant sorcerers or regular mages with Arcane Armor Training.
See what I mean?
This really gets to the crux of the matter, I think. I think, in a well-designed class, form and function follow one another as being equally important.
So why does it matter which you come up with first?
If they are both equally important, then why is starting with a mechanical nitch (i.e. “what can’t you do?”) better than starting with a thematic one?
You can’t start at both places at once, either; a thematic concept and a mechanical concept won’t just spring into a designer’s mind, simultaneously and in concert. Everything starts with a single seed of inspiration, and if both form and function are equally important, then it shouldn't matter which side of the reviled fluff/crunch fence that seed of inspiration is found on.
Or do I missunderstand you? I could very well be here. In any event, though, I must point out that we’re once again talking about game design in general, and there’s nothing here which should apply to base classes any more or less than to any other mechanic.
But this IS a problem. Suddenly you're not supporting the stuff you came out with in the first place. Look at the poor warlock. Mages got spells and spells and spells and they got like 5 invocations in like 2 books.
So…?
I really don’t see the problem. A good class should stand alone. No class NEEDS support, not even the core classes, aside for a bare minimum of class-specific feats or items (i.e. Extra Turning) which should appear in the same book that the class does.
It feels weird to be disagreeing with you on this issue considering how many times you’ve denounced “new mechanics just for the sake of new mechanics”.
it's a hell of a lot easier to let them swap out some feats. This is still a problem, yes, but again, more for classes than feats.
Okay, I’ll grant you that reselecting all of your feats is still easier than swapping classes. Once you’re swapping character levels, you might as well rebuild your whole character from the ground up.
It could, but it wasn't a thesis. That was one post in a long forum of posts, over the course of which I talked about several well-done classes. So, you pretty much know that's not what I'm saying.
For the most part, your post reads as an indictment of ALL new mechanics, not just base classes.
Oh, of course. I wasn’t trying to misread you.
My point was that you set out to say that new base classes generally weren’t as good as other new mechanics, but most of your arguments don’t try to make a distinction between the two (they could be rephrased as an argument against new feats or substitution levels or what-have-you).
I don't know what classes are slated for the book to follow, but I would favor classes that have long standing history with the game. Cavalier for starters (though some of the mounted combat feats allow one to accomplish the same thing...)
Ok, here is an example from what I'd see an Inquisitor class to look like.
1 Order, Sense Weakness +1, Spellcasting, Grimorie
2 Ancient Lore: Sense Unnatural
3 Sense Weakness +2
4 Order Secret
5 Sense Weakness +3, Requisition: Talisman
6 Ancient Lore:
7 Sense Weakness +4
8 Order Secret
9 Sense Weakness +5
10 Ancient Lore:
11 Sense Weakness +6, Requisition: Relic
12 Order Secret
13 Sense Weakness +7
14 Ancient Lore:
15 Sense Weakness +8
16 Order Secret
17 Sense Weakness +9, Requisition: Artifact
18 Ancient Lore:
19 Sense Weakness +10
20 Order Secret
HD: d8
SP: Int + 6
Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim, Use Magic Device. An Inquisitor also gets class skills listed under her Order in "Training"
Proficiencies: All Simple Weapons and the Symbolic Weapon of her Order. She is also Proficient in Light Armor and Shields.
Order: At 1st level an Inquisitor may select an Order to belong to. This gives the Inquisitor a particular Foe she specializes in, two additional class skills listed under "Training". A +2 Bonus to the Knowledges listed as "Primary Knowledges" which increases to +4 if she gains 10 ranks in one, and a Martial Weapon Proficiency under Symbolic Weapon.
Sense Weakness: Inquisitors train constantly in their battles against there foes and develop an uncanny knack for spotting supernatural entities vulnerabilities. At 1st level, and every other level there after, an Inquisitor gains +1 damage to her damage roles solely for the purposes of defeating Damage Reduction. This damage is doubled when fighting her Order’s foe and is treated as regular damage in all respect, even applying to her Order’s foes that do not have DR. Sense Weakness does not work against natural creatures, Humanoids, Beasts, Plants, and Oozes that are immune to its effects, unless otherwise stated.
Spellcasting: Gets access to 1-6 levels of Divine Casting, with Int the primary stat. Suffers Spell Failure as a drawback to hopefully balance it. Gets Orisons too.
Grimorie: Like a spellbook.
Ancient Lore: Equal to Int + 1/2 Inquistor Levels. Allows you to activate abilities like Sense Unnatural. This works like a detection spell that lasts 1 minute/level. 1st Round it detects a supernatural creature in the area of effect(No Humanoids, Beasts, Plants or Oozes). 2nd it lets you zero in on specific ones and gives you a general power level. 3rd it gives you the type.
Order Secrets: You gain the Secret listed for your Order at that level.
Example Order:
The Order Stalwart: These Orders have dedicated themselves to stopping the enemies of life. They fight an unending battle against the undead. When one threat ends they move one to the next. The Inquisitors of these orders are perhaps the most free with the knowledge they possess then any others. They constantly preach how to detect, ward against and destroy the Undead to any one who will listen. There is no threat more implacable and these men and women will fight it to the bitter end.
Primary Knowledge: Knowledge History and Knowledge Religion.
Training: Climb and Survival. Orders Stalwart often travel where mortals fear to tread.
Foe: Undead.
Symbolic Weapon: Flail
Secrets: Channel Positive Energy (SU): When the Inquisitor reaches 4th Level, she gains the supernatural ability to channel positive energy like a Cleric. Using this ability consumes two uses of her Ancient Lore ability. An Inquisitor uses her level as her effective Cleric level when channeling positive energy. This is a Charisma-based ability. The Inquisitor always channels positive energy regardless of her alignment.
Detect Undead (SP): When the Inquisitor reaches 8th Level she may spend an Ancient Lore point to cast Detect Undead as a Spell-like ability. The caster level of this effect is equal to the Inquisitor’s level. This is a Charisma-based ability.
Shield of Life (EX): When an Inquisitor reaches 12th Level she becomes immune to being raised as Undead or being turned into a spawn. She also gains a bonus to her saves versus Death effects, Negative Energy effects, and all Supernatural and Spell-like Abilities of Undead equal to her Charisma.
Big dumb question time, but whats wrong with the Blackguard being the iconic black knight while its fine for the paladin being the white knight. They are two sides of the same coin. One fights for good while the other sides with evil. The point most people bring up now is that paladins derive their powers from the influance of a good deity. But there are evil gods as well so why wouldnt thay have their own champions. One that can use undead minions and dosnt think about the dishonour there might be seen in using poisen, but even that can be taken differant ways. Who says making use of poisan is dishonerable? Is it not more prudent to poisan your enemy at his dinner table than fight him in open combat when you have no chance of winning. Its a fully valid tactic and has been for hundreds of years. If you want a guy that runs about being sneaky and stabbing people in the back isnt that what the assassin is for?
And back to something brought up earlier under the varient rules available in some books you could do paladins that didnt get spells so wouldnt have to pray to their god each day, they could in theory at least being watched over by a god making use of them to further their own end, its not like that is unheard of and so why couldnt the same be said for the blackguard. A dark blessed warrior who's terrible plans just so happen to suit the schemes of a particular evil god. This would mean the class could be done as a non spellcasting class so cooling the need to have him/her/it venerate a good directly to gain his class features. Would make for a nice tool for DM's as well when the player is no longer working within his patrons plans to have him begin loosing his gifts. Hence giving him the same risks that the Paladin runs when he chooses how to act in a given situation.