Artificer


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With the release of Artificer and the elimination of crafting xp costs, I feel that something needs to be done for them.

By default, the first changes that would be made would be the increase to d8 hp, and the artificer spells that use xp now use 5x that in gold value, as all spell xp costs have been dropped.

I've put some time into this, and as I haven't been able to find any conversion for them listed anywhere, I decided to come up with my own. I would like any constructive suggestions regarding these ideas.

The craft reserve would be lost, I would suggest giving them an equivalent version of a sort of a gp reserve. Since they use a 1:5 conversion for spells that use xp, I'd simply make it 5x the listed value for gp, and give it a new description

Craft Reserve: An artificer's deeper understanding of magic items enables him to use various objects gathered while traveling in order to enchant items. An Artificer receives a pool of resources he can spend instead of gold when crafting a magic item. Each time the artificer gains a new level, he receives a new craft reserve; leftover points from the previous level do not carry over. If the points are not spent, they are lost. An artificer can also use his craft reserve to supplement the cost of the item he is making, taking a portion of the cost from his craft reserve and a portion from other materials.

Retain Essence (Su): At 5th level, an artificer gains the ability to salvage the crafting materials from a magic item and use those materials to create another magic item. The artificer must spend a day with the item, and he must also have the appropriate item creation feat for the item he is salvaging. After one day, the item is destroyed and the artificer adds the materials it took to create the item to his craft reserve. These points are lost if the artificer does not use them before gaining his next level.

To be more Pathfinderish, The artificer should also get something on most of the later "dead levels." I'm not really sure what to put in there aside from possibly more bonus feats.

If somebody has some other conversion for Artificers, or feedback for what I've suggested, I would appreciate it.


I suggest you take a look at the Artificer from Tome of Secrets, from Adamant Entertainment. The book is only $9.99 USD and it contains a lot more.


Here is my take on the artificer...

Aside from HD bump, skills reordering and xp costs deleted (equivalent 5x gp cost) I just deleted the craft reserve and retain essence abilities.
I also granted access to the Artifice clerical domain powers (but not spells).
Edited artificer's knowledge to grant a bonus equal to half level (minimum +1) to appraise checks (as to determine if an item is magic).
Craft homunculus gained at 5th level instead of 4th (since one can't emulate the prerequisites to create a construct at 4th level anyway) and can choose Artificer's bond (like paladin's divine bond but with slightly different magic properties available, less divine and more arcane, still working on the list) with a weapon instead of craft homunculus.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The retain essence was the most powerful ability the artificers had. What are you left with after you take that away?


dulsin wrote:
The retain essence was the most powerful ability the artificers had. What are you left with after you take that away?

Since crafting does not require XP expenditure anymore, the retain essence is useless now.

The artificer still can craft any item, plus metamagic spell trigger and metamagic spell completion are by far the most important abilities for the artificer, instead of retain essence.
Given the spellcasting (also in armor) and the bonus feats, a couple of domain powers seem ok to me as a tradeoff.


I'd probably consider giving them some sort of discount when crafting items. That was the reason for the craft reserve, so that crafting items had less of a cost for them.


Nero24200 wrote:
I'd probably consider giving them some sort of discount when crafting items. That was the reason for the craft reserve, so that crafting items had less of a cost for them.

Considering the -25% gp discount that they get with a single (bonus) feat and the easier crafting rules, I'd rather stress another point (which I did with the artifice domain powers).

Crafting just breaks the wealth per level guidelines if it's too much involved in adventures.
1000 gp worth of items for an effective 375 gp expense is enough for a discount by itself.

Contributor

Having the "retain essence" be converted to GP to be applied to a new item is just fine.

I'd also make an artificer's homonculus be bonded a lot like a wizard's bonded object, where the artificer can rebuild it and have it miraculously repaired the next day if it's not destroyed.

Liberty's Edge

ok... now that I saw the artificer I know its not for me... :S

any idea about a kind of mechic/tinker/inventor class?

Contributor

There was the old Gnomish Artificer in the 3.0 Magic of Faerun. It was underpowered but very flavorful and fun.

Scarab Sages

Montalve wrote:

ok... now that I saw the artificer I know its not for me... :S

any idea about a kind of mechic/tinker/inventor class?

"Saw" the class, do you mean the tome of Secrets one, or the little preview we got... or did I miss something?


I have an artificer as a player in my campaign. For now I will make so they only have to use spellcraft for any item.

At a level yet to be determined they can ignore the caster level +5 requirement, and only need to make a spellcraft check equal to the item.

Later they can do the accelerated crafting without the penalty. This probably won't come into play until at least level 15.


Maester from Complete Arcane? Not a whole lot available for tinkerers in D&D, since it's usually not very mechanical heavy. I'd look in Eberron somewhere.


I just use the eberron one. It needs a few things changed but nothing to bad.

The ToS one needs to be better worded and the HD is still off just to be off there is no need for this. It comes off as a copy of the eberron one with stuff pasted on. Will have to get into it in my detail but I'll use the Eberron one it looks like

However if your looking for a mad tinkers ToS with some work or a lot of clean up could work fine

Contributor

neceros wrote:
Maester from Complete Arcane? Not a whole lot available for tinkerers in D&D, since it's usually not very mechanical heavy. I'd look in Eberron somewhere.

The Maester from the Complete Arcane is one of the most badly thought-out prestige classes Wizards has come out with yet. It has, in the illustration, the Maester (an Arcane prestige class) poking around on an Apparatus of Kwallish, an item which requires Animate Objects, a spell only available to clerics and bards. So you're expected to go into it as a bard? And then you sacrifice an entire caster level to gain a magical ability that's duplicated by a cheap magic item from Eberron that's reprinted in the Spell Compendium.

About the only thing the class has going for it a kewl name.

Did no one bother to playtest this?


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
neceros wrote:
Maester from Complete Arcane? Not a whole lot available for tinkerers in D&D, since it's usually not very mechanical heavy. I'd look in Eberron somewhere.

The Maester from the Complete Arcane is one of the most badly thought-out prestige classes Wizards has come out with yet. It has, in the illustration, the Maester (an Arcane prestige class) poking around on an Apparatus of Kwallish, an item which requires Animate Objects, a spell only available to clerics and bards. So you're expected to go into it as a bard? And then you sacrifice an entire caster level to gain a magical ability that's duplicated by a cheap magic item from Eberron that's reprinted in the Spell Compendium.

About the only thing the class has going for it a kewl name.

Did no one bother to playtest this?

I'm sorry, were you under the impression that WotC material was playtested? Take another look through those books, specifically at classes like the Ultimate Magus, Abjurant Champion, and Ur-Priest.

WotC classes tended to fall into two categories: Awesome flavor with poor mechanics, and "who cares?" flavor with overpowered or dip-ready mechanics.

Contributor

Sean FitzSimon wrote:


I'm sorry, were you under the impression that WotC material was playtested? Take another look through those books, specifically at classes like the Ultimate Magus, Abjurant Champion, and Ur-Priest.

WotC classes tended to fall into two categories: Awesome flavor with poor mechanics, and "who cares?" flavor with overpowered or dip-ready mechanics.

Too true.

Having to redo class mechanics is annoying, but at least an easy fix with some.

Maester just needs to lose the caster penalty at first level and have Animate Objects automatically added to the spell list, most easily done by creating an "animate crap" Domain spell list and letting anyone who qualifies get the whole list.

Effigy Masters should likewise lose the caster penalties and get to take their effigy as something like a Bonded Object a la Pathfinder, so if it gets trashed, they can easily recreate it.


Please, don't mention Abjurant Champion. It breaks my head that they released such an awesome class based on a spell that ISN'T EVEN ABJURATION!!

Ahem. Continue on.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

In our RotRL game, I convinced my DM to let me pay an Eberron Artificer and we went about "pathfinderizing" it. we ended up doing the following

• D8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 4 skillpoints, Will saves high

• We added Decipher Script to the list of skills

• We decided faking any spell (within your level range) with UMD was too extreme, especially since there was a wizard in the party who might have used me as an infinite library of new spells. So we gave artificers a spell book (I called it a Schema book), that was the basis for what spells they could fake. This was before the PFCR came out, but even with the relaxed crafting rules, I think it still makes sense to keep it. Many times an artificer is going to casting from scrolls and wands and those are not spell rereqs you can ignore.

• Instead of Artificer Knowledge, we gave them Detect Magic as a spell-like ability. It became Dweomer Sense.

• Craft reserve was dumped. We beefed up Retain Essence, allowing it to salvage the enchantment for the purposes of crafting, and moved it to level 3. The ability got called Distill Radical. Basically the artificer destroys a magic item, but distills the dweomer into a small trinket called a radical (stolen from shadowrun's enchanting rules). The radical has a GP value of 1/2 market price of the item it came from. That whole gp value can be used towards the crafting of a magic item of the same enchantment (basically the artificer takes the dweomer out and reapplies it to a new item) or a portion of it can be used towards a similar item at the DM's discretion. So now my "Craft Reserve" is a bunch of dweomers in nicknacks, gems harvested from hilts, beads on strings, and other magic pieces of junk.

• Dispel Magic and Break Enchantment were added to the infusions list.

• Infusions, like Weapon Augmentation Personal, etc that had a 1 minute cast time got changed to a full round action, but now require a UMD check at 15+infusion level. If one wants to cast them without incident they take 10 (which takes one minute)

• A new class feature at level 5 called Plural Infusion allowing you to spread an infusion to an additional item at no additional cost once per day. This goes to 2 per day at 10th and 3 per day at 15th. The idea here was to encourage the artificer to spread the love on occasion while buffing himself. This culminates with the capstone power, Mass Infusion which allows an infusion to be spread to items carried by all allies within 30 feet.

• Some minor changes were made to some infusions to balance them or make them work in the new system. Bane is WAAAAAAAY over powered as +1 enhancement if you can cast it on demand. We moved it to Lesser Weapon Augmentation (Edit- Did I say lesser weapon Aug? I meant regular Weapon Augmentation) so that it was on par with Holy. Spell Storing Item was changed so that it could cost hitpoints to cast. It basically inflicted damage equivalent to an inflict spell of the same level being used.

All in all, its been a really fun class to play. But a note to DM's out there, artificers run on cash. Their midlevel features expect the artificer to be wielding a boatload of scrolls and wands. they can get by on infusions alone, but the real fun of the class is to craft stuff, and use it in the next adventure. The inverse here is true too. if your artificer has been über powerful in the game, reduce the money flow, and the down time, and make him spend his resources.


Anburaid wrote:

In our RotRL game, I convinced my DM to let me pay an Eberron Artificer and we went about "pathfinderizing" it. we ended up doing the following

• D8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 4 skillpoints, Will saves high

• We added Decipher Script to the list of skills

• We decided faking any spell (within your level range) with UMD was too extreme, especially since there was a wizard in the party who might have used me as an infinite library of new spells. So we gave artificers a spell book (I called it a Schema book), that was the basis for what spells they could fake. This was before the PFCR came out, but even with the relaxed crafting rules, I think it still makes sense to keep it. Many times an artificer is going to casting from scrolls and wands and those are not spell rereqs you can ignore.

• Instead of Artificer Knowledge, we gave them Detect Magic as a spell-like ability. It became Dweomer Sense.

• Craft reserve was dumped. We beefed up Retain Essence, allowing it to salvage the enchantment for the purposes of crafting, and moved it to level 3. The ability got called Distill Radical. Basically the artificer destroys a magic item, but distills the dweomer into a small trinket called a radical (stolen from shadowrun's enchanting rules). The radical has a GP value of 1/2 market price of the item it came from. That whole gp value can be used towards the crafting of a magic item of the same enchantment (basically the artificer takes the dweomer out and reapplies it to a new item) or a portion of it can be used towards a similar item at the DM's discretion. So now my "Craft Reserve" is a bunch of dweomers in nicknacks, gems harvested from hilts, beads on strings, and other magic pieces of junk.

• Dispel Magic and Break Enchantment were added to the infusions list.

• Infusions, like Weapon Augmentation Personal, etc that had a 1 minute cast time got changed to a full round action, but now require a UMD check at 15+infusion level. If one wants to cast them without incident they take 10 (which takes one...

This seems to be one of the better thought out Eberron Artificer mods I have seen. Love the class, hate the ToS one.


Quote: This seems to be one of the better thought out Eberron Artificer mods I have seen. Love the class, hate the ToS one.

I have to agree. It seems like all the ToS classes are closer to 3.X then Pathfinder. I think the Eberron Artificer is a bit more open to going either the magic or science route.

I haven't read the new Item creation rules, but I don't see why Craft Reserves couldn't be converted to gold. Whether making it a pool or a flat discount on the price.

For UMD covering spell requirements, just don't let it apply to scrolls. Only allow an Artificer to use her infusions for it.


Skaorn wrote:

Quote: This seems to be one of the better thought out Eberron Artificer mods I have seen. Love the class, hate the ToS one.

I have to agree. It seems like all the ToS classes are closer to 3.X then Pathfinder. I think the Eberron Artificer is a bit more open to going either the magic or science route.

I haven't read the new Item creation rules, but I don't see why Craft Reserves couldn't be converted to gold. Whether making it a pool or a flat discount on the price.

For UMD covering spell requirements, just don't let it apply to scrolls. Only allow an Artificer to use her infusions for it.

Part of the conversation I had the with the DM was about doing something else for craft reserve besides a pool of gold pieces. While gp are a great arbiter of player power balance, for us it lacks flavor. Radicals were the middle ground. They have a gp value but they also have flavor in that the DM calls it large bat wings, or a opal with a faint eire glow, the head of a small statue, etc.

I also find it neat, that as I adventure, I'm gonna have a sack full of nicknacks to craft with.


Skaorn wrote:
xorial wrote:
This seems to be one of the better thought out Eberron Artificer mods I have seen. Love the class, hate the ToS one.

I have to agree. It seems like all the ToS classes are closer to 3.X then Pathfinder. I think the Eberron Artificer is a bit more open to going either the magic or science route.

I haven't read the new Item creation rules, but I don't see why Craft Reserves couldn't be converted to gold. Whether making it a pool or a flat discount on the price.

For UMD covering spell requirements, just don't let it apply to scrolls. Only allow an Artificer to use her infusions for it.

I am the GM in question, and I think that the reason this class has been working so well for us is that we started with the Artificer that Anburaid wanted to play (eberron) and limited ourselves to changes that were essential to gameplay. I recommend this approach for other class conversions.

As for why craft reserves aren't done as gold: We're playing Rise of the Runelords. A lot of the treasure in that AP is nigh unusable by the players (unless they are evil, or giants). I wanted a way to preserve the uniqueness of the treasure while letting the artificer convert it into a more useful form for the party. Being able to "salvage" abilities from one item and transfer them to another is pretty useful, but less powerful than just cashing it in for gold. That opens up the Artificer for some more interesting class abilities.

As for simply disallowing scrolls, I will take it under advisement. It would be more parsimonious, but I think Anburaid's rather attached to his little "cookbook".


Anburaid wrote:


• Craft reserve was dumped. We beefed up Retain Essence, allowing it to salvage the enchantment for the purposes of crafting, and moved it to level 3. The ability got called Distill Radical. Basically the artificer destroys a magic item, but distills the dweomer into a small trinket called a radical (stolen from shadowrun's enchanting rules). The radical has a GP value of 1/2 market price of the item it came from. That whole gp value can be used towards the crafting of a magic item of the same enchantment (basically the artificer takes the dweomer out and reapplies it to a new item) or a portion of it can be used towards a similar item at the DM's discretion. So now my "Craft Reserve" is a bunch of dweomers in nicknacks, gems harvested from hilts, beads on strings, and other magic pieces of junk.

I am confused. Could you provide a specific example or two?


concerro wrote:
Anburaid wrote:

The ability got called Distill Radical.

I am confused. Could you provide a specific example or two?

Let's say the party happens upon a Huge Flaming Greatsword. The artificer can destroy the greatsword, and in the process create a "radical component". He can then use the radical component when crafting a new item to pay the cost of a Flaming (+1) ability.

If the GM will allow it, he might also use that cost to pay for a Flaming Burst ability, or part of the cost of a Necklace of Fireballs, since they "seem" related.

Technically, this isn't much of a class ability, since the rebate on destroyed items is basically their market value. However, it is a huge convenience in my campaign, where the money flows at a modest rate, and a lot of the destroyed treasure would be extremely hard to sell*. We're talking on the order of hundreds of thousands of gold that would go unclaimed without this power.

* Good luck selling that huge greatsword. I hear there's an army of giants mobilizing against you that might give you a good price for it.

These item-centric artificer powers are tough to work with, since there tends to be more variation in GM styles around items than most other parts of the game. In a setting where magic was considerably more prevalent (Eberron), this ability wouldn't pass muster.


toyrobots wrote:
concerro wrote:
Anburaid wrote:

The ability got called Distill Radical.

I am confused. Could you provide a specific example or two?

Let's say the party happens upon a Huge Flaming Greatsword. The artificer can destroy the greatsword, and in the process create a "radical component". He can then use the radical component when crafting a new item to pay the cost of a Flaming (+1) ability.

If the GM will allow it, he might also use that cost to pay for a Flaming Burst ability, or part of the cost of a Necklace of Fireballs, since they "seem" related.

Technically, this isn't much of a class ability, since the rebate on destroyed items is basically their market value. However, it is a huge convenience in my campaign, where the money flows at a modest rate, and a lot of the destroyed treasure would be extremely hard to sell*. We're talking on the order of hundreds of thousands of gold that would go unclaimed without this power.

* Good luck selling that huge greatsword. I hear there's an army of giants mobilizing against you that might give you a good price for it.

These item-centric artificer powers are tough to work with, since there tends to be more variation in GM styles around items than most other parts of the game. In a setting where magic was considerably more prevalent (Eberron), this ability wouldn't pass muster.

Well since I DM the Eberron campaign, I get to decide what passes muster ;D

mmmm mustard

*leaves to make a sandwich


toyrobots wrote:


Technically, this isn't much of a class ability, since the rebate on destroyed items is basically their market value. However, it is a huge convenience in my campaign, where the money flows at a modest rate, and a lot of the destroyed treasure would be extremely hard to sell*. We're talking on the order of hundreds of thousands of gold that would go unclaimed without this power.

Actually, it's better than converting the recovered XP to gold 1:5. That nets you 1/5 the item base price in "craft reserve gold" instead of the 1/2 base price in gold you get from selling it.

Question, when adding multiple abilities to an item, (say keen, flaming, and ghost touch which are each +1) do the radicals just reduce the cost to increase the total plus of the item by their equivalent (+1) value?


Freesword wrote:
toyrobots wrote:


Technically, this isn't much of a class ability, since the rebate on destroyed items is basically their market value. However, it is a huge convenience in my campaign, where the money flows at a modest rate, and a lot of the destroyed treasure would be extremely hard to sell*. We're talking on the order of hundreds of thousands of gold that would go unclaimed without this power.

Actually, it's better than converting the recovered XP to gold 1:5. That nets you 1/5 the item base price in "craft reserve gold" instead of the 1/2 base price in gold you get from selling it.

Question, when adding multiple abilities to an item, (say keen, flaming, and ghost touch which are each +1) do the radicals just reduce the cost to increase the total plus of the item by their equivalent (+1) value?

Yeh, but bear in mind you get a radical for the whole enchantment, enhancement bonus as well. You can break it all down, but you do not get the price break for using a radical on a more powerful item. You have to make up the difference.


In general adding weapon or armor enchantment radicals together ends up reducing the final cost to make a weapon in half. If you add a +1 flaming dweomer (value 4000gp) to a +1 keen dweomer (value 4000gp) to get a +2 flaming, keen weapon then the total discount is 8000gp. The total cost of enchanting a +4 weapon is 16,000gp, so you are getting 50% discount on crafting this new magic weapon.

Mind you the GM could say that something like a +1 Frost and a +1 Flaming dweomer do not mix well and the radical's value towards the weapon is reduced, perhaps to 0gp. However I would be be fairly lenient, if were GMing with this class feature, as it's mostly a flavor thing. A PC could still take the weapon the radical would be harvested from and sell it for cold hard cash, and get exactly the same value towards whatever enchant they had considered crafting. Using radicals just reduces the time and paperwork required to do so.

And also just because you are using radicals in your crafting does not mean you can supersede the limitation on the highest enhancement bonus you can craft. The radical just takes the place of a portion of the materials cost.


Ok, it seems to me that I am getting 2 conflicting responses here.

Using my example from this thread as a basis:

I have a radical from a +1 flaming weapon (a +2 or 4000gp equivalent)

I add it to a +1 keen weapon (also a +2 equivalent)

My result is a +2 flaming keen weapon (a +4 weapon)

Cost to create a +4 weapon is 16000

Subtract 4000 for the existing +1 keen

Subtract 4000 for the +1 flaming radical

this leaves 8000

My question is : Would I still need to pay this 8000 gp difference?


Freesword wrote:


My question is : Would I still need to pay this 8000 gp difference?

I would say yes.


Freesword wrote:

Ok, it seems to me that I am getting 2 conflicting responses here.

Using my example from this thread as a basis:

I have a radical from a +1 flaming weapon (a +2 or 4000gp equivalent)

I add it to a +1 keen weapon (also a +2 equivalent)

My result is a +2 flaming keen weapon (a +4 weapon)

Cost to create a +4 weapon is 16000

Subtract 4000 for the existing +1 keen

Subtract 4000 for the +1 flaming radical

this leaves 8000

My question is : Would I still need to pay this 8000 gp difference?

Yes indeed.


One bit of Errata from AnBuraid's description of the class above:

The time required to cast an infusion with a minutes duration "on the fly" is 1 round (six seconds), not a full-round action.

The game designers were quite explicit with the intention that these spells were to be used before, not during combat. However, allowing a crucial infusion to be cast during combat over a whole round (easily disrupted) and requiring a roll allows the Artificer to very rarely pull out that crucial buff that lets the party survive an otherwise impossible encounter.

You could do it as a Full-Round action, but I think that's too lenient given the original intended role of the Artificer.

(you probably all noticed that Decipher Script ought to be Linguistics.)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Artificer's already had the ability to cast 1 minute infusions as full round actions with Action Points didn't they?

At least this way the class works without a metamechanic that wouldn't be in every game.


Thanks for the clearing that up for me. Looks like a viable way of converting unusable magic items into usable ones without selling them off for gold.


After much thought I'm pretty much set on using a mechanic similar to distill radical for my own conversion. What I'm looking at doing however is a series of 3 abilities.

The first would allow you to transfer magical enhancements/abilities/charges in kind. Move +1 flaming from one weapon to another, combine the charges from 2 wands of fireball into 1. Basically the new item has the exact properties taken from the item sacrificed added to it. In game mechanic terms, the gold piece value of making the item sacrificed is applied to making the new item.

The second would allow you to apply the magic from the item sacrificed to anything that had the same prerequisites. Basically if the item sacrificed required the dimension door spell to make, then it's value could be applied to any other item that required that spell to make and would count as meeting that requirement for determining the DC.

The third would allow you to use apply the value of the item being sacrificed with no restriction. Again, requirements for the item sacrificed count as meeting the requirements for the new item for the check DC.

I'm thinking of calling the first level Transfer Dweomer, the second Transmute Dweomer, and the third Greater Dweomer Transmutation.

The craft reserve will still be there at the 1:5 ratio representing a discount for efficient crafting. I will probably cap the amount that can be applied to any given item.

I'm also adding the ability to activate items that use multiple charges more efficiently, expending 1 less charge per activation (minimum 1). Also the ability to activate a charged item twice as a standard action expending 2 charges (limited to only one item per round).

I still have a couple of high level dead levels (17 and 19) and no real capstone ability. I've considered using crafting related feats to fill in, but this drastically cuts into bonus feat options and pushes some of them much later than they would be available as feat.

Anybody have any ideas for filling in high level dead levels for this class?

Note: I'm considering any level that does not have a special ability listed or gain a new level of infusion as a dead level.


I recall a Prestige Class that had a one-time ability (as in, "once in the lifetime of the character") to create a minor artifact (after all, artifacts have to get into the gameworld somehow, right?).

Something like that could be a suitable capstone ability.


Freesword wrote:

After much thought I'm pretty much set on using a mechanic similar to distill radical for my own conversion. What I'm looking at doing however is a series of 3 abilities.

The first would allow you to transfer magical enhancements/abilities/charges in kind. Move +1 flaming from one weapon to another, combine the charges from 2 wands of fireball into 1. Basically the new item has the exact properties taken from the item sacrificed added to it. In game mechanic terms, the gold piece value of making the item sacrificed is applied to making the new item.

The second would allow you to apply the magic from the item sacrificed to anything that had the same prerequisites. Basically if the item sacrificed required the dimension door spell to make, then it's value could be applied to any other item that required that spell to make and would count as meeting that requirement for determining the DC.

The third would allow you to use apply the value of the item being sacrificed with no restriction. Again, requirements for the item sacrificed count as meeting the requirements for the new item for the check DC.

I'm thinking of calling the first level Transfer Dweomer, the second Transmute Dweomer, and the third Greater Dweomer Transmutation.

The craft reserve will still be there at the 1:5 ratio representing a discount for efficient crafting. I will probably cap the amount that can be applied to any given item.

I'm also adding the ability to activate items that use multiple charges more efficiently, expending 1 less charge per activation (minimum 1). Also the ability to activate a charged item twice as a standard action expending 2 charges (limited to only one item per round).

I still have a couple of high level dead levels (17 and 19) and no real capstone ability. I've considered using crafting related feats to fill in, but this drastically cuts into bonus feat options and pushes some of them much later than they would be available as feat.

Anybody have any ideas for filling in high...

when you get to the really high levels, sometimes the thing to do is consider whether there is "quality of life" power you can throw in. They often don't effect combat, like druids ignoring effects of old age, or Tongues of Sun and Moon for monks.

by 17th level an artificer has a bunch of meta magic feats, has almost no need to roll UMD anymore, and probably a bunch of magic items.

Maybe something to do with their homunculai ooooooo

This might be overly crazy but what if an artificer could sacrifice there homunculai for extra hp if they get hit with a killing blow?

As a capstone power you might allow a the ability to create an extra dimensional work space, so they can craft where ever they are?


Freesword wrote:
After much thought I'm pretty much set on using a mechanic similar to distill radical for my own conversion. What I'm looking at doing however is a series of 3 abilities.

Wow, freesword, it looks like you're thinking along the same lines, and having the same issues as we are!

As for dead levels at 17 and 19, I don't think it's that big a deal. We chose to address it by fixing the already-wonky spell progression to work more like the pathfinder bard's, and pushing some of the Armor/Weapon enhancement infusions back - they're still many levels ahead of the same bonuses for a cleric or wizard - so that the higher levels are a little less sparse.

You can tell that the Eberron Artificer was a latter-era 3.5 class, because it looks like they made no effort past tenth level to keep you interested in the class... *sigh*

In other news, we're playing around with making the more powerful infusions into per-day abilities, similar in power to the bardic performances, since we gave them bard spell progression anyway. It looks like it's turning out quite well, since you can address a lot of the infusion special cases directly instead of the whole "They're exactly like spells but not spells" thing. We'll link the final version once the dust settles.

@Anburaid: Does it really need new powers? I think it looks pretty filled out with a power at 18th. A single dead level here and there, it happens, even in pathfinder. Those three in a row before were ugly, I'll admit, but a blank space on the level chart is not sufficient reason to add power to a class, right? Two dead levels is actually better than average in Pathfinder, the bard has three, the cleric has quite a few.


toyrobots wrote:
Freesword wrote:
After much thought I'm pretty much set on using a mechanic similar to distill radical for my own conversion. What I'm looking at doing however is a series of 3 abilities.

Wow, freesword, it looks like you're thinking along the same lines, and having the same issues as we are!

As for dead levels at 17 and 19, I don't think it's that big a deal. We chose to address it by fixing the already-wonky spell progression to work more like the pathfinder bard's, and pushing some of the Armor/Weapon enhancement infusions back - they're still many levels ahead of the same bonuses for a cleric or wizard - so that the higher levels are a little less sparse.

You can tell that the Eberron Artificer was a latter-era 3.5 class, because it looks like they made no effort past tenth level to keep you interested in the class... *sigh*

In other news, we're playing around with making the more powerful infusions into per-day abilities, similar in power to the bardic performances, since we gave them bard spell progression anyway. It looks like it's turning out quite well, since you can address a lot of the infusion special cases directly instead of the whole "They're exactly like spells but not spells" thing. We'll link the final version once the dust settles.

@Anburaid: Does it really need new powers? I think it looks pretty filled out with a power at 18th. A single dead level here and there, it happens, even in pathfinder. Those three in a row before were ugly, I'll admit, but a blank space on the level chart is not sufficient reason to add power to a class, right? Two dead levels is actually better than average in Pathfinder, the bard has three, the cleric has quite a few.

I was just throwing out ideas for freesword. The class you and I worked on is totally different, and in no need of new class feature ;) But there are always different approaches one can take to making this class


Jabor, thanks for the suggestion. Artifacts are described as items that can no longer be created, at least by mortal means. As such I'm hesitant to give a character the ability to make one. Still as a one time per character capstone ability it's not completely out of the realm of possibility. I'll definitely give it serious consideration.

Anburaid, I'm not really seeing turning the homunculus into so much of a crafted familiar, but it is an interesting thought, as is the extra-dimensional workspace. As for "quality of life" abilities, they are a possibility. Power isn't so much a concern as being thematic and level appropriate, but I do insist on at least some in game effect even if it is minor.

The fact is that by 15th level the Artificer has or has qualified for every item and crafting related ability in the game. Most crafting checks are a mere formality. The new magic item crafting rules made his job easier and some of his abilities redundant.

With regard to the dead levels not needing filling, I admit that I may be acting a little OCD about it. As a side note toyrobots, the PF Bard gets a new level of spells at each of those levels it doesn't have a special listed for, but you are right about the cleric and I think the wizard and sorcerer as well would fit my description of having dead levels. It's more of a preference than an absolute requirement.

I'm feeling stumped for ideas so I figured I'd ask and see if anyone else had any to offer. Considering the quality of ideas tossed around during the play test, I figured this was the best resource available. So far I haven't been disappointed. Thank you. In exchange I'm offering anything new I come up with for those that may have a use for them.


Anburaid wrote:


• We decided faking any spell (within your level range) with UMD was too extreme, especially since there was a wizard in the party who might have used me as an infinite library of new spells. So we gave artificers a spell book (I called it a Schema book), that was the basis for what spells they could fake. This was before the PFCR came out, but even with the relaxed crafting rules, I think it still makes sense to keep it. Many times an artificer is going to casting from scrolls and wands and those are not spell rereqs you can ignore.

Just a note. It was erratad that an Artificer scroll was neither arcane or divine.

This meant that there was no Arcane Spell Failure for using it, and that the ONLY way to use it was through Use Magic Device.

As a result a wizard could not take a scroll you made and put it into his spell book, the same for an Archivist on the divine side.


Ughbash wrote:
Anburaid wrote:


• We decided faking any spell (within your level range) with UMD was too extreme, especially since there was a wizard in the party who might have used me as an infinite library of new spells. So we gave artificers a spell book (I called it a Schema book), that was the basis for what spells they could fake. This was before the PFCR came out, but even with the relaxed crafting rules, I think it still makes sense to keep it. Many times an artificer is going to casting from scrolls and wands and those are not spell rereqs you can ignore.

Just a note. It was erratad that an Artificer scroll was neither arcane or divine.

This meant that there was no Arcane Spell Failure for using it, and that the ONLY way to use it was through Use Magic Device.

As a result a wizard could not take a scroll you made and put it into his spell book, the same for an Archivist on the divine side.

WOW, really? huh

Seems like someone at WotC discovered the exploit and decided to patch it. But the patch almost makes the artificer scrolls a separate magic tradition altogether, populated by rogues, bards and artificers. You'd have arcane magic, divine magic, and charlatan/DIY magic.

I know we went with using a spellbook/schema book, not just to reduce the abuse inherent in creating any scroll you want and passing it to your party wizard, but also to say the artificer needs to become familiar with a magical effect before being able to copy it. Same reason a druid that has never seen a dinosaur, doesn't get to wildshape into one.

This is not to say that you can't or shouldn't allow them that flexibility in your own games. its just what we considered too open-ended in our group's games.

We've been reworking the class during a gaming break now and it has changed quite a bit as Toyrobots mentioned. We took the classic artificer infusions out, and turned them into class abilities with a pool of uses per day, in the Ki pool/channel energy convention. We spaced them out so that the higher level infusions like Greater Weapon Augmentation are deep into the latter 10 levels of the class. We then took the rest of the infusions and converted them to a list of arcane spells, with spell progression identical to the bard, including spells known.

So now we have an artificer who studies spells, and copies them into a book, he uses that book to make magic items, mostly scrolls and wands. He can also create temporary magic effects on his and his parties equipment. As he levels he discovers some spells that are so useful and intuitive that he starts to cast them spontaneously. They are only a few, but they are the spells he finds most useful to him in his trade. In this way each artificer can specialize in some aspects of the class, like making magic traps, or crafting on the fly, or repairing and modifying constructs.

We are still doing some minor detail stuff be we will be posting it soon


Building on what anburaid described:

We decided the most sane policy toward Item Creation feats was to just give them all to the artificer as they reach the correct caster level. That's basically what was going on in 3.5 anyway.

Even if you plan on retaining the certain feats at certain levels thing, take note that Forge Ring is a 7th level pre-req now, so the 3.5 artificer gets it way late. For us, it was easier to just say that the artificer is the crafting class, therefore they get all Item Creation Feats as class abilities. All the ones in the core book — be sure to include the caveat or list the actual feats to prevent shenanigans.


@ Anburaid & toyrobots

Any update on the 'final' version of your artificer? I am intrigued by what you have come up with so far.


jglamere wrote:

@ Anburaid & toyrobots

Any update on the 'final' version of your artificer? I am intrigued by what you have come up with so far.

well we have a beta version but I am trying to make it look extra spiffy for you guys. The class changed a lot. As a result of this we changed some of the names of things to make it more specifically its own class, based on the the artificer. Some of the changes we made make straight conversions not exactly seemless, and for those of you concerned about such things, yes it breaks conversion guidelines.

Some of what we did was we divided infusions up into class abilities and arcane spells. The standard infusions that invest an item with magic properties became class abilities, while the infusions that were more about modifying an item's use got turned into arcane spells, using the bard progression with spontaneous casting, and spells known, and added supstantially to spell list. These spells become the artificer's "bag of tricks", that specialize them along one style or type of atificer, such as one that specializes in constructs or magical traps.

We spaced out the infusion class features more as well, so that it was not as front-loaded and its more of a class that you take to 20 levels. For guidance we used the paladin's holy weapon as measuring stick as to when enhancement bonuses and properties should be doled out, and we give the artificer a slight edge over the paladin in this arena since, items/infusions are the main class feature for artificers, while the paladin is a smite machine. This artificer still gives out a fair amount of weapon properties but starts with himself at 1st level, and starts giving the party props at 3rd. He can still give armor properties right at 1st level, and the progression is faster than for weapon properties.

We also took out the material cost of most the infusion class abilities. The only one that costs gp is the spell storing infusion, which should, because you are basically making in-the-field scroll. The was done primarily because of the spacing out of abilities and because we tossed out the craft reserve. So now, while an artificer needs to wait till level 17 before passing out vorpal weapons, he doesn't need to have 500gp worth of mineral oil to turn his friends into guillotines. Infusions also have a spellcraft mechanic. They take 1 round to create and take a spellcraft check, BUT if you take 10, and you succeed without rolling they take one minute to create.

Lastly we buffed up the crafting quite a bit. Crafting is 9 times out of 10 a downtime pursuit. It also requires lots of gold. Both of which are very much aspects of the campaign that the player has almost no control over. So we took the crafting feats out of the class features and tied them into one feature Peerless Craftsman. This feature automatically grants crafting feats from the core book + craft construct to the artificer as soon as he meets the requirements.

We'll be posting again very soon :D


Anburaid wrote:

Some of the changes we made make straight conversions not exactly seemless, and for those of you concerned about such things, yes it breaks conversion guidelines.

So it's crossed the line from conversion into rebuild. I've done that for a few classes myself. As for breaking the conversion guidelines, as long as you kept the HD tied to BAB you can probably be forgiven. This one seems to really define what is or isn't a Pathfinder class.


So I posted our artificer rebuild in a new topic. Handy link provided below:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/communityContent/conversions/artificerRebuildTheArdwright&page=1#0

Grand Lodge

Here are a few ideas I had to help artificers.

One, for retain essense: Time. Instead of gaining gold back to help build another magic item, it gives you back time equivilant gold.

Example: You "disenchant" a +1 longsword. Cost is 2000g, correct? So now instead you may shave off 2000g worth of crafting time, or 2 full days.

Not sure if maybe Craft reserve could be bumped into full days for those levels where you don't get an even 1000g increase. But just an idea. Maybe put a limit on the number of days you can shave off a single project, like no more than 1/2 your level or something? Again, this was just something quick off the top of my head.

Another idea, and I used this as a racial ability for my gnomes. Let the artificer use a higher DC for the progress of crafting mundane items.

Example: Item you want to craft that has a 15 DC, you roll a 16 with modifiers. Well instead of 15x16 for progess you get to 17x15.

Just some things I had bouncing around, just thought I'd share and see what you can make with some parts. ;)

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