RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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On page 35 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, regarding the ability Bardic Performance, we see the following statement: "Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action."
I am leaving aside the rules/balance question of whether allowing a performance to continue while other actions are undertaken is good or bad. My concern here is simply with the fact that I cannot imagine a way in which this could reasonably sync up with reality in any meaningful way. For certain Performance skills--singing or oratory, for instance--it makes natural sense for a bard to be able to continue his performance as he takes other actions--stabbing a fellow, running to and fro, opening doors, pulling levers. Even casting spells: a skillful bard could work command words into a spoken performance seamlessly, and employ the somatic component as dramatic gestures as accompaniment.
How do you imagine the same thing happening with performance involving instruments? Flutes, lutes, horns, drums, what have you; all of them require you to be using at least one hand, and most of them require two hands to be used with any effectiveness. I imagine if your bardic performance is a few notes of sound at a time with a lot of six-second silences in between, you could justify taking your hand away to make an attack, or climb a wall, or cast a spell, or drink a potion, but I doubt bards are intended to all specialize in Performance: Minimalist Avant Garde Music.
Problems of suspension of disbelief occur when things like this occur. When my bard says to me, "while continuing to play my lute to inspire greatness, I open the door and attack the man on the other side," I immediately begin wondering where she grew those extra arms.
A bard can't open a door while playing a lute. Playing the lute takes both hands.
However, that does not mean it can't be a free action. For example a bard could keep playing her lute (free action) and then take other actions that don't require the use of her hands (a double move, for instance, or.. okay, that's all that is coming to mind unless she's a multiclassed psion).
This has always been a balance issue; basically, it means that it's retarded to base your bardic music on perform(any sort of physical instrument).
Various attempts have been made to reward bards for playing harps or trombones or electric guitars; for instance, there are feats which make your bardic music more powerful but only if you're holding an instrument.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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A bard can't open a door while playing a lute. Playing the lute takes both hands.
Of course it does; and that's the problem. The rules nowhere state that use of the Perform skill requires two hands. That's something we infer logically--of course playing a lute takes two hands!--but that doesn't mesh with the RAW, and which makes using bardic performances just that much more unappealing. As if bards needed that.
Do a lot of bards just take singing or oratory for this reason? I had one of my players threaten to create a bard with ranks in Perform (Musical Number), where he plays an instrument and then sings a capella while stabbing someone or while his hands are busy.
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Various attempts have been made to reward bards for playing harps or trombones or electric guitars; for instance, there are feats which make your bardic music more powerful but only if you're holding an instrument.
Look at masterwork instruments. My bard has Perform (Oratory). AFAIK, there's no masterwork book o' stories out there for me to tell.
It really comes down to treating all Perform skills the same for fairness reasons, and to not open up a can of worms by trying to classify each skill in different ways. Which ones require hands vs. no hands? Which one can use props vs. no props? Which one are audible, visual, or both? They started to open this can of worms with distract and countersong, declaring half the skills visual and half audible, but look how unsatisfying that is - oratory is visual????
Unless one really wants to come up with a system for how each Perform skill is unique and what it can and can't do, you've got to treat them all the same.
Which brings up two arguments:
1) Why not say that everyone has to keep using standards actions to keep up a performance (everyone the same, but go with the more restrictive rule)?
2) Why not collapse them into a single Perform that works more like Linguistics, where each point is a new language/type of performance?
This is the first bard I've played. On paper he seems fine, but a lot of folks seem to think this may be the least well designed of the new classes. We'll see.
A bard can't open a door while playing a lute. Playing the lute takes both hands.Of course it does; and that's the problem. The rules nowhere state that use of the Perform skill requires two hands. That's something we infer logically--of course playing a lute takes two hands!--but that doesn't mesh with the RAW
What requires a hand, what requires two, and what requires no hands is carefully defined in terms of weapons, combat action, movement modes etc.
What requires a hand outside of combat, however is a matter of DM adjucation. None of the "adventuring gear" in the equipment chapter explicitly says how many hands you need free to employ it. This falls into the narrative side of the game (whether it makes sense for you to do something one-handed or hands-free is up to the circumstances and the DM).
Same with opening doors, for that matter. It never says outright that you need a hand free. You could be holding a sword in each hand and playing the lute while also opening doors/pulling levers/etc; except that you can't, because it's a DM's job to tell you you can't.
Do a lot of bards just take singing or oratory for this reason?
I think that all bards take singing or oratory for that reason, frankly. Though dancing works too. If you think that a bard playing a harp in combat is thematically appropriate, then you should write some feats which substantially reward him for entering combat without a sword or shield.
This is the same reason why mounted fighters guide their mount with their knees rather than using reigns.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Hmmmm, let's give it a shot...
If his playing a lute inspires greatness then it's more than just a tune - there's magic involved. Okay, there you go. Wizards did it.
No, sorry... where was I?
Why can't he leave a note or two 'hanging', thus captivating the listeners, keeping them in the mood, in the rhythm. Every moment he doesn't play leaves them wanting more and in their mind they're still following the tune. Six seconds is only a few bars - then he reaches over his back and plucks another string to keep his song going. The new note merges with the last and their magical sustain inspires or whatever. Then he goes back to fighting.
As long as people remain captivated by the bard it shouldn't matter what else he does. Even if his Inspire Greatness comes from Perform (Standup Comedy) or Perform (Mime). A word, gesture or note at the right moment keeps everyone in the zone.
Some of the best songs stop for a moment - and every listener is mentally going "...two, three, four..." and waiting for the drums/ guitar/ whatever. Like, say... erm... darn it, can't think of one!
Hmmmm, let's give it a shot...
If his playing a lute inspires greatness then it's more than just a tune - there's magic involved. Okay, there you go. Wizards did it.
No, sorry... where was I?Why can't he leave a note or two 'hanging', thus captivating the listeners, keeping them in the mood, in the rhythm. Every moment he doesn't play leaves them wanting more and in their mind they're still following the tune. Six seconds is only a few bars - then he reaches over his back and plucks another string to keep his song going. The new note merges with the last and their magical sustain inspires or whatever. Then he goes back to fighting.
1.) This makes sense if he can regularly stop what he's doing to pluck a note here or there. However, what you're describing sounds more like someone taking a move action every round, and the bard doesn't have to take any action at all to keep performing; if he's performing a run or charge action every turn, or making a full-attack in melee, this explanation makes sense.
2.) I don't mind the notion that he can magically produce flute music without necessarily playing. However, if that's the case, why does he need the flute at all?The problem is that choosing a flute over his own voice take up a hand or two without rewarding him (the way that, say, holding a shield rewards him). The logical conclusion of the "It's magic!" line of thinking, then, is that he only needs the flute to start the tune, and then after that he produces the song purely through magic. Or perhaps he can even use his Perform(Flute) skill without having a flute at all.
This doesn't really have the mythological weight of "enchanted flute music", however. It feels more like an arcane synthesizer. One wonders why, if it doesn't require a flute to produce (and also doesn't sound exactly like a flute, having a magical element that mundane flutes can't duplicate), we should even call it "flute music" at all.
I think that if bards could produce music through magic alone it would be an unearthly thing which didn't sound exactly like any instrument known to man.
It works, I suppose, but even then it requires the bard to drop his masterwork lute on the floor (or else take an action to put it away).
Also, for that one round he isn't armed (whereas a singing bard would be).
The "drop it on the floor" remark was meant to point out that such bard are probably going to be unkind to their finely-tuned instruments.
Suggesting that they drag them across the floor for the duration of the battle hardly undermines my point.
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Dragging them across the floor? Most bags and things that have a leather strap you put over your shoulder hang at your waist. Only the truly lazy ones drag them on the floor.
Oh... you thought I meant a thick chain. No, like a necklace. Attach a chain to a flute or some other small instrument and you can hang it around your neck. Should hang across your chest.
Guitars have shoulder straps, even. And marching drums are also worn over the shoulders. As a DM I would rule that a large enough instrument is bulky enough to warrant a -2 penalty to attacks and AC, but this could be removed by a feat (Militant Bard) or something like that.
Ahh, I see. That makes more sense.
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Heck, just attach a chain or leather strap to it and let it hang from your neck or shoulder (depending on size of musical instrument) when you're not using it. My wizard did that with her spellbook. Pretty nifty looking....awww, your wizard has a man-purse. So trendy!
-Cross
HEY! We like to lovingly refer to it as a MURSE thank you!
In all seriousness, I like the fact that Bardic Music no longer exclusively relies on performance, and that your performance now serves a much better purpose.
As for the arguments about using a free action, perhaps the standard action is just a few chords, like "lean on me", then everyone else starts singing? FOr all you knwo he gets the whole fight into his music, and he just uses a free action to call out the next verse?
Why do you have to restrict yourself to traditional instruments? Music can be defined by rhythm and beat, so you could technically make your music by the sounds of battle.
The slaps of your mace against flesh, the shifting of the links in your armor and clicks as it spins around your pivoting torso, the chime of your shield as you knock it against your chest... heck, that's all percussion, and totally legit by the book. In fact, it makes a lot of sense for a battle-bard.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Why do you have to restrict yourself to traditional instruments? Music can be defined by rhythm and beat, so you could technically make your music by the sounds of battle.
The slaps of your mace against flesh, the shifting of the links in your armor and clicks as it spins around your pivoting torso, the chime of your shield as you knock it against your chest... heck, that's all percussion, and totally legit by the book. In fact, it makes a lot of sense for a battle-bard.
One of the more creative responses I've seen yet, and one which does neatly sidestep the conundrum. And while it certainly works and has a lot of unique flavor, it unfortunately doesn't make things any easier for flautists.
One of the more creative responses I've seen yet, and one which does neatly sidestep the conundrum. And while it certainly works and has a lot of unique flavor, it unfortunately doesn't make things any easier for flautists.Why do you have to restrict yourself to traditional instruments? Music can be defined by rhythm and beat, so you could technically make your music by the sounds of battle.
The slaps of your mace against flesh, the shifting of the links in your armor and clicks as it spins around your pivoting torso, the chime of your shield as you knock it against your chest... heck, that's all percussion, and totally legit by the book. In fact, it makes a lot of sense for a battle-bard.
Masterwork rape whistle?
I like where this thread is going.