Got to agree with you on that, Manyshot wasn't that great as a base feat. It was nice of course, move and get in a shot with some more damage than normal.
The only REAL way to break normal manyshot is by PILING the nonprecision damage onto the arrows. Try taking a fighter specialized in your bow of choice, the bigger the better (greatbow was 1d10, getting powerful build or an equivalent somehow raised that to 2d8) and then start tacking on a ton of bonuses.
Follow by using true-strike in one way or another, and ranged power attack for full. BAM, dead enemy. It was hard in 3.5, and alot easier to do in Pathfinder since there is a literal ranged power attack feat rather than needing an obscure class ability/magic item to do it for you.
I guess that might be why it was changed, since fighters get even more bonuses now they were afraid of... *gasp* powerful standard actions for non-casters.
The original many shot already have a pretty decent penalty, and after it stacked with the deadly aim feat the chances of hitting were not good at all, and since they were smart enough to mention that touch attacks dont work with deadly aim it is pretty hard to munchkin your way around the feat. I am not arguing with you, just trying to understand the motivation.
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I agree with you there Concerro, I don't like the change and will be houseruling it back in somehow. (Probably making the base manyshot apply once per round and usable with any single chosen shot, even an AoO if the character has somehow managed to get bow AoO's, and generating another manyshot feat that allows multiple shots per round to be double shots OR standard action 4 arrow shots at a -2 or -4, not sure which penalty)
Thing is, manyshot was a good, fun, cool feat that in general was useful but not powerful by any means. Hardcore Optimization should be only loosely considered during game design, as the bulk of the gaming community doesn't touch it and should have access to a balanced game without the need to study forums for months and train themselves to find innovating synergies.
EDIT: Heck, if the present manyshot (2 arrows only) were allowed as a standard (attack) action and could be stacked with Vital Strike I still don't think it would be overpowered, though it may be pushing near the edge with that.
One of the things I learned when trying to pull together a gaming system is, you can't have everything under control. Sometimes you miss things, other times you use your own design for what is "acceptable" and forget that something stronger is allowed. Since what you produced wasn't anything broken, it gets put in and they forget that two feats now overlap.
ALso there is something to be said for having bad feats you wade through, in order to find the true gems. While this may have the problem of "It's a trap!" it also give people experience in growing and understanding just what they're doing. It sucks, don't get me wrong, but its a necessary part to learning how to play as well.
Reminds me of my spell thief that used a bow.
He drowned in sewage...
...in SEWAGE.
I think I will keep both versions and rename the 3.5 version multishot or something similar. That way if any of my players like the new one they can have a choice.
just trying to understand the motivation.
i'm guessing paizo's goal was to make Archery more congruent with melee attacks. Ranged gets power attack in the form of Deadly Aim and single standard action attacks can benefit from Vital Strike.
Indeed Vital Strike provides relatively the same function as the 3.5 manyshot without the two arrows fired in one shot silliness. As an additional benefit, it no longer rewards the cheesy loading down of arrows with damage dice enhancements which worked with the 3.5 manyshot.
Got to agree with you on that, Manyshot wasn't that great as a base feat. It was nice of course, move and get in a shot with some more damage than normal.
The only REAL way to break normal manyshot is by PILING the nonprecision damage onto the arrows. Try taking a fighter specialized in your bow of choice, the bigger the better (greatbow was 1d10, getting powerful build or an equivalent somehow raised that to 2d8) and then start tacking on a ton of bonuses.
Follow by using true-strike in one way or another, and ranged power attack for full. BAM, dead enemy. It was hard in 3.5, and alot easier to do in Pathfinder since there is a literal ranged power attack feat rather than needing an obscure class ability/magic item to do it for you.
I guess that might be why it was changed, since fighters get even more bonuses now they were afraid of... *gasp* powerful standard actions for non-casters.
You could also break 3.5 manyshot and use arrow of spell storing and in one attack roll (hopefully with truestrike since it's all one attack roll at -8, i mean +12...) glitterdust, web, stinking cloud, and scorching ray (by a level 11 caster for 3 rays, extra 12d8 fire damage no save)