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I am not sure if this is an option for you, but my group is working it so Half-Orcs brought up in Human Society get the +2 to any ability because they are brought up with they more diverse parent and the Beta Stats when the Half-Orcs are in Orc society due to the harshness of the environment.
my 2 cents.
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The only reason I could see justifyiing +2 to one ability for Half-orcs, is if Paizo revised full-blood orcs from +4 Str to +2 Str to bring it more in line with +2 +2 -2 ability standard for player races.You know, that's damn fine point to make. We don't know what Pathfinder RPG orcs are going to look like unlike elves and humans. They might very well be a bit different from what people know from 3.5.
Should be interesting to see.
Some have shown up in Classic Monsters Revisited and Eando Kline's journals.
IIRC, the orcs in the journals were only about as ugly as WotC's 3.x half-orcs. Those in CMR were actually better looking!
And the half-orcs seen so far range from ugly-but-almost-human(whatsisname from Darkmoon Vale), orc-handsome(racial line-ups), to cute(Campaign Setting).
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Ignoring your first comment, how about the simple fact that two of those three races are composed of approximately one-half of the third race? How do you propose we present that mechanically then?
Half-orcs and Half-elves are both half-human after all.
Maybe the way it was presented before? By watering down the pure races traits, something that was kept for Half-elves but discarded for Half-orcs. I mean, really they replaced the stat adjustments with an Intimidate bonus. Ohh, how cool is that? Not very.
Really The two Half races are side by side in the book it doesn't take much top compare them, the Half-elf has more and more useful abilities across the board with the exception of Darkvision.
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I am not sure if this is an option for you, but my group is working it so Half-Orcs brought up in Human Society get the +2 to any ability because they are brought up with they more diverse parent and the Beta Stats when the Half-Orcs are in Orc society due to the harshness of the environment.
my 2 cents.
Unfortunately for PFS characters this is not an option.
It should be noted that Darkvision is now more useful, as it explicity works in the confines of a Darkness spell (though not Deeper Darkness). I think you do half-orcs a disservice by dismissing darkvision so readily; spells are not available to everyone, and I have never, ever seen a character prep the Darkvision spell, nor buy a potion of darkvision.
How can you say that...
I am doing Half-orcs a disservice by dismissing Darkvision, and at the same time admit Darkvision isn't useful enough for a character to prep the spell, or buy a potion/scroll?
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How can you say that...
I am doing Half-orcs a disservice by dismissing Darkvision, and at the same time admit Darkvision isn't useful enough for a character to prep the spell, or buy a potion/scroll?
I'm more pointing out that I haven't seen the prevelence of darkvision spells and items that you suggested make the racial ability worth little. I think darkvision is very, very useful in certain circumstances, but people are wary of spending 300 gp on potions of it when they could have more healing. People tend to trust more in possessing light sources, and with the new text of darkness, that kind of thinking will harm them. The half-orc, on the other hand, doesn't have to spend 300 gp every time he wants to see in the dark, and can counter those pesky drow with impunity in a way other adventurers cannot. So it's more that I believe players underestimate the importance of darkvision than I think it isn't useful.
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If I may add my two cents, Half-orcs seem better this way. after all, their brains do taste half-human.
And for those of you lamenting the ugly, stupid, gruff half-orcs of the past, let me just inject this bit of insight into your day:
England's scholars have duly noted that they've been genetically weakened from countless centuries of sending their best and brightest off to war. This is just a logical consequence of a barbarian tribe's nature.
To truly become a significant racial entity in any world, even a fantasy world, you have to reward genetic diversity and encourage healthy habits.
Like eating the brains of the intelligent members of other species. I mean, that's just a given.
That Wis bonus in Beta didn't feel right to me, and [with the bonus to Str] it practically made the half-orc the *only* choice for a cleric.Hmmm. I like the PFRPG half-orc better than the 3.5 half-orc, but I think I liked the Beta version better than either of them.Personally, I agree.
Dwarves were just as good maybe better with con and wis bonus. The -2 int to a class that has 2skill points/ level really hurts.
<blah blah blah> brains do taste half-human.
<blah blah blah>
Like eating the brains of the intelligent members of other species. I mean, that's just a given.
Braaaaaains...
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That Wis bonus in Beta didn't feel right to me, and [with the bonus to Str] it practically made the half-orc the *only* choice for a cleric.Hmmm. I like the PFRPG half-orc better than the 3.5 half-orc, but I think I liked the Beta version better than either of them.Personally, I agree.
No issues with losing the Wis bonus. Seemed a bit odd in the first place. I think they were trying to avoid a Str + Con thing which is understandable. Of the four left Wis makes the most sense given the flavor of the race.
Of the four left Wis makes the most sense given the flavor of the race.
Especially when you factor in Wisdom is used for Perception, and is the most likely stat to represent instinct and cleverness.
Of the four left Wis makes the most sense given the flavor of the race.Especially when you factor in Wisdom is used for Perception, and is the most likely stat to represent instinct and cleverness.
Low cunning....
Low cunning....Of the four left Wis makes the most sense given the flavor of the race.Especially when you factor in Wisdom is used for Perception, and is the most likely stat to represent instinct and cleverness.
Cunning can be seen as the ability to bluff and deceive. That would warrant a penalty to Charisma.
As a (tongue in cheek) quick fix I offer the following new Half-orcs only flaw:
Orc Regression
You are butt ugly and sharp as a marble.
Effect:You take a -2 penalty to Intelligence and Charisma.
Special:Gnomish bards with Perform (Comedy) are always making "Your momma is so fat..." jokes whenever you are around them.
I always found it somewhat borderline to have a player race receive a -2 penalty to intelligence. We have orcs which can have offspring with humans (although I'm not sure if they are sterile or not). And this offspring is naturaly more stupid than regular humans. Not because of their chaotic nature and culture but because they have inferior genes or something. If this were 2 different human races the internets would be on fire.... but then again I've found that trying to apply real world stuff to D&D often ends in scratched heads.
"Real world stuff" is kind of a vague term.
Applying real-world logic is fine, provided that you frame that logic in a fantasy context, and acknowledge the things that are fundamentally different in a fantasy world.
Where you would be going wrong, though, is getting for-realz offended on the behalf of a make-believe race. =p
If anything, the comparison you draw between the orc 'race' and real-world minorities is... well, would potentially be incendiary among some circles.
"Race" in D&D means something completely different from "race" in the real world. What those who fight for equality have been trying to tell us for several generations now is that, even though we look different, we are all ultimately human.
In contrast to this, D&D imagines a world with races that AREN'T human at all.
Im talking laws of science "real world stuff". If two races can have fertile offspring together then they are the same race according to "real world stuff"
Other "real world stuff" is for example casting delayed blast fireball followed by force cage (the solid version). The fireball after exploding will burn most of the oxygen inside, thus causing the person to suffocate. We wrote this off with "because it's magic" but fire isn't a substance it's just an effect.
Also there have been times when the west has not wanted to acknowledge humans as humans. When they discovered the Native Americans the church faced a problem. How could there be humans on the planet yet not know of God. Thankfully they decided that the natives were human.....
But the point is: You are half-orcs and since orcs (who come from god knows where originally (where do humans come from to begin with?)) are geneticly stupid you will have a lower intellectual capacity then regular old humans. Not because of where you were brought up but simply because of your race. This might be the case though, that orcs are simply intellectually inferiour. In that case sooner or later someone will do what Irikos did in Athas, and finish them off.
Im talking laws of science "real world stuff". If two races can have fertile offspring together then they are the same race according to "real world stuff"
If fantasy races were real that definition would be forced to change. If dragons were categorized as part of the human race, I'm afraid that most taxonomers would be forced to hang themselves.
In fantasy settings, there are frequent examples of creatures with wildly different genes being able to produce viable offspring. That's the part you're ignoring.
In fantasy settings, there are frequent examples of creatures with wildly different genes being able to produce viable offspring. That's the part you're ignoring.
There are even lots of real-world examples of animals interbreeding that are usually classified as different species. Horses can interbreed with donkeys and brown bears with polar bears. Genetic compatibility is not the deciding factor for classification.
True, though those offspring can't generally produce offspring in turn.
Also true. But that's "generally". Meaning, there are exceptions.
And in the end, all classifications are just abitrary. In evolution there's never a point where you can say "this individual is of a new species, but it's parents are not". It's just a judgement call if you think two animals should be classified as two distinct species or as variants of the same.
Scientists don't like it when things don't conform (as the universe has resisted for a long time to do).
This does raise the very important question, are all these half humans fertile? This question is obviously of great importance! If I remember correctly the mule from Darksun wasn't.
When I think of it though. Maybe the Gods are behind all this inter-racial possibilities. Gods tend to be dirty bastards.
It's clearly stated (as well as demonstrated) in most settings that all of these things are cross-fertile. A half-angel can breed further into human society to produce aasimar, for instance.
In Classic Monsters Revisited, Paizo suggests that the appearance of orcs varies depending on how much human blood runs in a tribe. Orcs with darker (greener) skin and more pig-like faces are "purebloods" or close to it.
It's fun to think about this stuff, though. I am guilty of reserving "orcs are descended from humans!" (or vice-versa) as a campaign secret at least once.
In my homebrew setting, orcs are a very distant offshot of humans.
As all races are evolved and not created, mamalian humanoids are one type of primates, the other one is apes. And humans and orcs are the two with the least differences.
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Actually druid not cleric...But I agree wisdom was not the way to go...Charisma seemed a better bet due to their imposing nature. When you think about it a 250 pound double waraxe raging orc is much more intimidating and inspiring than a gnomeThat Wis bonus in Beta didn't feel right to me, and [with the bonus to Str] it practically made the half-orc the *only* choice for a cleric.Hmmm. I like the PFRPG half-orc better than the 3.5 half-orc, but I think I liked the Beta version better than either of them.Personally, I agree.
Well, Str + Wis are the most relevant stats to "melee" clerics (i.e. most of the clerics I've seen played during my 20+ years of D&D), and Half-Orc got them both; to a druid, Con would likely be more important, so dwarves will make better druids in PF RPG (although dwarves make for great clerics as well, if you prefer "staying power" and Fort over attack bonus and damage optimization).
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Dwarves were just as good maybe better with con and wis bonus. The -2 int to a class that has 2skill points/ level really hurts.That Wis bonus in Beta didn't feel right to me, and [with the bonus to Str] it practically made the half-orc the *only* choice for a cleric.Hmmm. I like the PFRPG half-orc better than the 3.5 half-orc, but I think I liked the Beta version better than either of them.Personally, I agree.
As I said above, for optimization purposes, most cleric fans I know would pick half-orc over dwarf any day; +20 HPs and +1 Fort is nice, but at high levels almost irrelevant.
I'm glad that half-orc was "nerfed" a bit.
Dwarves were just as good maybe better with con and wis bonus. The -2 int to a class that has 2skill points/ level really hurts.That Wis bonus in Beta didn't feel right to me, and [with the bonus to Str] it practically made the half-orc the *only* choice for a cleric.Hmmm. I like the PFRPG half-orc better than the 3.5 half-orc, but I think I liked the Beta version better than either of them.Personally, I agree.As I said above, for optimization purposes, most cleric fans I know would pick half-orc over dwarf any day; +20 HPs and +1 Fort is nice, but at high levels almost irrelevant.
I'm glad that half-orc was "nerfed" a bit.
I'd be happier if they only got +2 to strength then this. For flavor reasons this doesn't give you the feeling of making a half-orc.
But just as an aside +1 to hit and damage aint worth much either at level 20, honestly I would say it is worth less then +1 to fort and +20 hps.
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Dwarves were just as good maybe better with con and wis bonus. The -2 int to a class that has 2skill points/ level really hurts.That Wis bonus in Beta didn't feel right to me, and [with the bonus to Str] it practically made the half-orc the *only* choice for a cleric.Hmmm. I like the PFRPG half-orc better than the 3.5 half-orc, but I think I liked the Beta version better than either of them.Personally, I agree.As I said above, for optimization purposes, most cleric fans I know would pick half-orc over dwarf any day; +20 HPs and +1 Fort is nice, but at high levels almost irrelevant.
I'm glad that half-orc was "nerfed" a bit.
I'd be happier if they only got +2 to strength then this. For flavor reasons this doesn't give you the feeling of making a half-orc.
But just as an aside +1 to hit and damage aint worth much either at level 20, honestly I would say it is worth less then +1 to fort and +20 hps.
You forget that favored class already gives you +20 HP in comparison to 3E, and that at high levels most enemies are capable of dropping you negative HPs if every attack hits (at least in 3E; I'm not sure how PF RPG has addressed this issue as I'll get the book on next wednesday; Bestiary may also have seriously "nerfed" monster damage). In any case, getting a +1 on one of your strong saves is only important if you try to "max out" your saves. On the other hand, attack and damage bonus are very important for "melee" clerics (and getting +2 to STR means a lot for 2-handed weapons and certain 3E feats -- assuming you use 3E splats).
Note that as I already mentioned, this is all from the optimization angle; I don't try to "finetune" my own PCs to this degree unless the GM's campaign absolutely demands it. It's just that every group usually has at least one guy who always goes for the "optimal" choices.
Anyway, this issue is already cleared in PF RPG. :)
I think it's easy to trivialize the importance of 20 HP and +1 to fort. saves, even at level 20.
What I'm missing, though, is how +1 to melee attack and +2 to damage- for a cleric- is any less trivial at the same level.
Attack bonuses are forever, sure, but a damage bonus becomes less important the further you go. For a fighter, I'll grant you that strength is unambiguously more important, but for a cleric or druid.. I'm seeing that one as more of a toss-up.
In either case, what goes for the cleric goes for the druid. This isn't 3.5, where wildshape means that the only physical attribute a druid cares about is his hitpoints. Stronger druids turn into stronger wolves/bears/sharks/etc.
Well, there's the whole "unruly savage" thing that they have going for them too (with which orc ferocity helps), but you could get that by playing a savage human with diehard. Every setting has at least one flavor of human barbarian; some have several.
I'm really curious about this. If you say they're still orky 'nuff for you, then what do you think it is that makes them so?
Well for me the thing that keeps them "orky" is the fact that they still have grey skin and tusks. And personally i always enjoyed playing a half-orc that wasn't a savage and everyone just assumed that he was because of the way he looked. With the new rules my half-orc psychic warrior who likes to read is a lot easier. And honestly I don't see the reason for not liking the new rules, if you want a big dumb half-orc put your +2 in strength and make intelligence your dump stat and call it a day.
Well for me the thing that keeps them "orky" is the fact that they still have grey skin and tusks.
Okay, fair enough. :)
I guess not all "flavor things" can be replicated by playing a human of this culture or that.And honestly I don't see the reason for not liking the new rules, if you want a big dumb half-orc put your +2 in strength and make intelligence your dump stat and call it a day.
I don't want that at all, though. What I want is to play in a world where all the other half-orcs are big and dumb.
You obviously don't feel the same way (concerning your psion), but if a new version of the game was released that made gnomes just as strong as humans, my greatsword-wielding cleric of Garl suddenly wouldn't seem nearly as cool. I think the main thing that made it so awesome when Merry stabbed the Lichking or Pippin killed the troll was that they were little guys, and how much extra gusto it took to make up for that.
The best thing about stereotypes is breaking them.
You obviously don't feel the same way (concerning your psion), but if a new version of the game was released that made gnomes just as strong as humans, my greatsword-wielding cleric of Garl suddenly wouldn't seem nearly as cool. I think the main thing that made it so awesome when Merry stabbed the Lichking or Pippin killed the troll was that they were little guys, and how much extra gusto it took to make up for that.
The best thing about stereotypes is breaking them.
Actually I think we do feel the same way, the fun with that character came from other peoples reactions to his smarts because most half orcs were dumb. And personally if I were running a game most half orcs would be dumb(npc's would have dumped Int) but I don't see why pcs have to be shoe-horned into playing a barbarian. I guess what I'm saying is the rules for pcs, who are generally exceptional examples of their races anyway, don't really have to apply to the common folk in the world.
Do you think we should give ALL races +2 to one ability score then, and just say "gnomes dump str, dwarves dump CHA", etc?
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Given the artwork, I've always wondered why Half-Orcs don't get a bite attack.
As for the stat thing, I'm thinking about whether or not to house-rule that a half-orc can choose either a +2 Str, or a +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis.
I'm not in love with the idea of half-orcs choosing +2 Int or +2 Cha.
Either way, it's something I'll let the players vote on. I don't feel strongly enough either way, and they'll all probably play humans anyway, as usual. :)
Probably not although there are things that would bother me more than that. The reason I think its a good idea for half-orcs is because the other half is human. If we were talking about full blooded orcs that would be entirely different.
Probably not although there are things that would bother me more than that. The reason I think its a good idea for half-orcs is because the other half is human. If we were talking about full blooded orcs that would be entirely different.
And that is what people are waiting to see. "What does Paizo do with the full blooded orc?" (i.e., are Orcs going to be +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int.) We will know in a Month or so, when the have the Bestiary.
Well for me the thing that keeps them "orky" is the fact that they still have grey skin and tusks. And personally i always enjoyed playing a half-orc that wasn't a savage and everyone just assumed that he was because of the way he looked.Well, there's the whole "unruly savage" thing that they have going for them too (with which orc ferocity helps), but you could get that by playing a savage human with diehard. Every setting has at least one flavor of human barbarian; some have several.
I'm really curious about this. If you say they're still orky 'nuff for you, then what do you think it is that makes them so?
Why would anyone assume that though with these new rules? Now coming across a half-orc with +2 to int will be common place. There is nothing special or different when everyone can do the same thing and have the system accomidate you. Doing it when every half-orc had a -2 to int was special, now not at all.
Probably not although there are things that would bother me more than that. The reason I think its a good idea for half-orcs is because the other half is human. If we were talking about full blooded orcs that would be entirely different.
This is a bit of a hybrid argument.
You say that the game rules for PCs of a race don't have to reflect the trends for NPCs of the same race (metagame arguement), but when asked why you don't apply this metagame argument to other races you site a half-orc's "human blood" (in-game argument).
But fair enough.
It's not like I'm trying to convince you that the new rules are dumb and you shouldn't like them. If it works for you, then cool. =)
I for one, like the new change. Finally, half-orc's don't get the shaft. It's also more in-keeping with other hybrids. I don't see half-elves gaining quasi elven ability modifiers, they get the versitiliy of humans, so why shouldn't other half-breeds?
Besides, it allows half-orcs to fill a more versitile role. Now people looking to play a "Distrubed by my heritge"-esc character might actually play one rather than some emo-dantewannabe-teifling
As mentioned before 1e and 2e had orcs tough and ugly. My memory is a bit fuzzy but I think they had a bonus to strength and constitution (+1 each) and a -2 on Charisma. It gave the quintisential fuggly, tough orc.
I had a Cleric/Assassin half-orc. He was fun to play but not to be around. He went off down the Palace of the Silver Princess snapping the beards off the dwarven statues...I forgot about the Barbarian class being in Unearthed Arcana (or the Manual of Polearms). That was a bastardised form of a White Dwarf article (I think) but ruined the feel of it by allowing the Barbarian to forget his mistrust in magic at higher levels...
Old school 1e also had class restrictions where your PC could only advance fully in his favored class and limited in nonfavored. ie an Elf could advance to any level as a wizard but only 12th as a Cleric. We had a house rule that you could use a wish spell to advance another level, one wish per level. All this really was to balance the classes. Humans could advance in any class to any level and become a character with two classes, demi-humans got lots of cool abilities (infravision, bonuses to stats, etc) but were limited in certain classes to which they could advance fully in. This meant there was a reason to have a human PC otherwise why bother? How many 1e campaigns had a human thief?
I personally don't see orcs as being particularly wise as a race and I am a bit confused why they should get a bonus on that stat. My personal choice would be a +2 to Constitution and Strength and a -2 to Intelligence and Charisma. I can't see orcs as great mages like I can't see Halflings in full plate wielding a huge sword.
I would rather see humans have unlimited advancement in any class and all other races limited to, say 10th, in all but their favored class.
In fantasy settings, there are frequent examples of creatures with wildly different genes being able to produce viable offspring. That's the part you're ignoring.There are even lots of real-world examples of animals interbreeding that are usually classified as different species. Horses can interbreed with donkeys and brown bears with polar bears. Genetic compatibility is not the deciding factor for classification.
Oh! Genetics!
So two half orcs get jiggy....do they produce half orcs, pure human, pure orc or nothing because half orcs are infertile?Same question to the half elves out there!
Leave genetics alone. It is complicated.
All you will end up with is Tenser growing sweet-peas...
I personally don't see orcs as being particularly wise as a race and I am a bit confused why they should get a bonus on that stat.
An alternate and pervasive archetype has developed which portrays orcs as the quintessential "noble savages". They can at the same time be ruthless and violent, but often there is a more complex reason for this (in Stan Nicholls' Orcs series it is because humans are "killing the land"; in Warcraft, it is because they were once enslaved by demons and have only recently liberated themselves).
I went back to my old school second edition books and read the orc entry. Orcs in second edition were about the height of a human standing between 5 1/2 to 6 feet tall and were about as strong as a typical human. There is no mention anywhere for the orc about exceptional strength nor stupidity. They were about as strong and smart as your average human. The only difference was the orcish society was based on ferocity and strength. The half-orc entry mentioned neither bonus nor penalty.
Well, not quite true. The 2E Complete Book of Humanoids lists the orc racial modifiers as +1 to Str, and -1 to Int and Cha. Half-orcs get +1 Str, +1 Con, -1 Int and -1 Cha, if my memory doesn't fail. It's interesting to see that on 2E, half-orcs were better than orcs in every sense, that's why they were described as having "the best of both parents".
Pathfinder's orcs in general seem a throw back to what the orc was in previous editions. A slightly tough race that values strength for survival, but not a race that is stupid either.
I would bet, however, that the Pathfinder Bestiary will list orcs as +2 Str and -2 Int.
Humans not as big as an orc would water the orc genes down allowing a half orc more versatility. The +2 bonus to any ability represents the humaan blood more. Now I imagine a half-orc being raised amongst the orcs would place it in strength. Considering in orc society only the strongest survive. But a half-orc raised in more civilized lands could utilize it in any sort of way.
Well I don't want to get deep into this discussion, but it seems that their purpose was simply to make half-orcs symmetric to the "other" half-human race. Which conceptually is a good idea, I think.
An alternate and pervasive archetype has developed which portrays orcs as the quintessential "noble savages". They can at the same time be ruthless and violent, but often there is a more complex reason for this (in Stan Nicholls' Orcs series it is because humans are "killing the land"; in Warcraft, it is because they were once enslaved by demons and have only recently liberated themselves).
I personally don't see orcs as being particularly wise as a race and I am a bit confused why they should get a bonus on that stat.
Ah!, I understand.
However as an old school gamer I still prefer my half-orcs violent and impulsive. With big tusks. I just don't see them siting around making Dreamcatchers.I can buy the "society made me this way" argument. If after all you are made to live in inhospitable places, etc. you would get a big chip on your shoulder. "Look at that huge forest which the elves won't let us live in...is it because I am an Orc?"
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Given the artwork, I've always wondered why Half-Orcs don't get a bite attack.
As for the stat thing, I'm thinking about whether or not to house-rule that a half-orc can choose either a +2 Str, or a +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis.
I'm not in love with the idea of half-orcs choosing +2 Int or +2 Cha.
Either way, it's something I'll let the players vote on. I don't feel strongly enough either way, and they'll all probably play humans anyway, as usual. :)
Hmmm... I personally feel that this should have been +2 to STR *or* CON, as half-orcs are tough and ferocious (and this would have made them a bit more versatile, without giving them too much).
BTW, did half-elves get to choose between +2 to DEX or +2 to INT? Or do they also get +2 to any stat (like humans). I think the former option would have been (thematically) better.