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In general, I love the Pathfinder rules. I keep running across little changes and clarifications that I think should have been included in the game years ago, and it's brilliant. However, there is one area where I'm finding the rules a little obtuse, and that's the matter of poison. Now, I don't know if I'm just missing something obvious, but I'm going to try and explain my problems with it, and hopefully I'll be able to get the official word on how it all works.
My main problem is with the 'multiple doses' rule. As written, the rules state: 'Each additional dose [of poison] extends the total duration of the poison by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of the poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative.'
Consider the following situation. Valeros is fighting 3 Medium monstrous spiders and an assassin, who wields a pair of weapons treated with Medium monstrous spider venom. The initiatives are as follows:
15 – Medium monstrous spiders (x3)
11 – Valeros
4 – Assassin (weapons treated with Medium monstrous spider venom)
Medium spider venom: DC 14, 1d2 Str for 4 rounds.
Say that Valeros is bitten by all 3 of the Medium monstrous spiders. When poisoned, at what point in the round does the character have to make their save? Does he make 3 saves at the base DC, then 1 per round for the next N rounds at the heightened DC? Does he wait until the end of the initiative count on which he was poisoned to make any poison saves, and just make one save per type of poison he was afflicted with on that initiative count, heightening DCs as appropriate? Does he wait until the start (or the end?) of his turn to make poison saves? Does he wait until the end of the round to make poison saves?
Furthermore, say that the assassin then stabs Valeros twice, inflicting two more doses of Medium monstrous spider venom. In short, what happens if a character suffers additional doses of the same poison later in the round? Does it merely increase the DC of his save still further? Does he have to make another save? Does he then have to make one or two saves in subsequent rounds, and what are the DCs of those saves?
Finally, if he is poisoned again in subsequent rounds by Medium monstrous spider venom, does it have any effect? Does it increase the DC of the save he is making? Does it force additional saves?
So, in full:
Valeros is bitten by 3 Medium monstrous spiders on Initiative count 14. How many saves does he have to make, when does he have to make said save(s), and what is the DC of any such saves?
Valeros is then stabbed twice by an assassin on Initiative count 4. The assassin's weapons are treated with Medium monstrous spider venom. How does this interact with the identical poison already afflicting Valeros?
Valeros is then bitten twice more by the spiders next round, on Initiative count 14, for a total of 7 doses of Medium monstrous spider venom in his system. What effect, if any, does this have on him, considering his already (repeatedly!) poisoned state?
Thanks for any clarification you can offer!
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Valeros is bitten by 3 Medium monstrous spiders on Initiative count 14. How many saves does he have to make, when does he have to make said save(s), and what is the DC of any such saves?
Valeros is then stabbed twice by an assassin on Initiative count 4. The assassin's weapons are treated with Medium monstrous spider venom. How does this interact with the identical poison already afflicting Valeros?
Valeros is then bitten twice more by the spiders next round, on Initiative count 14, for a total of 7 doses of Medium monstrous spider venom in his system. What effect, if any, does this have on him, considering his already (repeatedly!) poisoned state?
Thanks for any clarification you can offer!
Although the poison takes effect immediately, it is recommended that, if you have various poison capable creatures go on the same initiative count, you wait until all of them have had their bite before rolling against their poison.
For example, assume all three of the spiders hit. After the last one has gone, Valeros would make a DC 18 Fortitude save. Succeeding would end all counts of the poison. Failing would deal 1d2 strength damage. Valeros would then have 7 additional rounds (total of 8) to save.
On the Assassin's turn, again, wait until the Assassin is done before checking for Poisons. Assuming he hit with both of them and Valeros had failed his initial save against the Spiders, then the DC is increased to 22 and it will last for a total of 12 rounds.
In any case, if it is the same poison, Valeros should only attempt to save once per round. This should be done whenever the first poison hits him.
Thus:
Round 1
Spiders - All 3 hit, poison starts. DC +4, Rounds +4. Valeros rolls his DC 18 Fortitude save now, 1d2 Strength damage on failure.
Valeros - Does his thing.
Assassin - Hits twice. DC +4, Rounds +4.
Round 2
Spiders - 2 hit. DC +4, Rounds +4. Valeros rolls his DC 26 Fortitude save now, 1d2 Strength damage on failure.
After the second attempted save, if he still has failed, then the poison will last an additional 14 rounds (total of 16). Any more poison being injected into his body will increase this duration.
Needless to say, poison is very dangerous in the final Pathfinder RPG.
In any case, Valeros only will ever need one successful save to cure all counts of the poison, though this gets increasingly difficult the more often poison enters his system.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Right I have a problem with this. Not saying that it isn't valid, just that there are some huge problems. Generally a Save is made each time at the exact instant a save is called for. You don't go "Wait I have seven more fireballs coming at you in this initiative count so you can just save against them all at once" for the rogue, and you don't say, "Wait the three hags will all be using a diseased attack so You can just save against all three at the same time." It doesn't make since that in this one instances you would break the rule of save when affected to give the poison more DC and duration.
I would go with either individual saves at each instance of poisoning, or one at the end of the round for each type of poison.
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Right I have a problem with this. Not saying that it isn't valid, just that there are some huge problems. Generally a Save is made each time at the exact instant a save is called for. You don't go "Wait I have seven more fireballs coming at you in this initiative count so you can just save against them all at once" for the rogue, and you don't say, "Wait the three hags will all be using a diseased attack so You can just save against all three at the same time." It doesn't make since that in this one instances you would break the rule of save when affected to give the poison more DC and duration.
I would go with either individual saves at each instance of poisoning, or one at the end of the round for each type of poison.
Your first method of doing it would seem to be contrary to the idea of Pathfinder, which attempts to remove the 'you're bitten, make a save; you're bitten again, make another save' situation. I support Nethys's take on things because it never forces more than one save against each type of poison per initiative count, and - depending on the success or failure of your saving throws - possibly per round. The entire idea of these new poison rules seems to be tailor-made to break the rules on making one save per instance of an effect. It's an attempt to cut down on the dice-rolling that poison can cause, while simultaneously making it more deadly than it is in 3.5.
On the other hand, your second method looks about as good as Nethys's solution to me. I guess it depends on how deadly you want your poison.
Apologies for any incoherency or poor phrasing, it's been a long day at work.
Well they didn't cut down on the dice rolling by adding more rounds of rolling.
The main difference between Nythes and my choice is only what initiative count you save on. In both cases the DC's and duration would remain the same, the difference is on that round the assassin hits you with the poison you would be saving after that so the DC would have been higher, but you would have gotten your action without any poison problems from that round in effect yet.
(poor wording... blaming the headache.)
A simple way that I'll be using (and possibly the intent), is to roll for each save, *until* you fail, are "poisoned", and take the initial damage. After that, the rest stack on to increase the DC of the secondary damage (no save to prevent that), and increase the duration.
So: Bite, make save - made; Bite, make save - failed, take damage; Bite, add DC/duration; Bite, add DC/duration. Your turn, make save...
What it does, if you fail at least one save, is cut down on you rolling for every single poison (either every round, or 10 rounds later).
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I overall like Nethy's style as it makes even the initial dose of poison a pretty dangerous one. However, one of my big concerns with it, is that it could do things like make a high level monk kind of a nightmare.
One of my favorite characters to play in the old system was a monk that would flurry with poisoned shurikens after he hit the level he was immune to poison. Particularly in a campaign where something like drow poison is available, it would be a bonus to throw like 6 or 7 shurikens of low cost/DC poison at someone because even with a low DC they are likely to fail one of the saves.
With this ruling, it means that at 16th level, a monk can throw 9 shurikens in a round(7 flurry, 1 haste, 1 ki point), so could potentially raise the DC on a poison by 18. Thats more then most poison DCs start with.
I can see some hit and miss things with this, obviously scoring 9 hits isn't always going to happen, but even raising the DC by 10 is a huge thing, particularly when spells to get rid of poison are caster level checks now.
It hurts seeing the DC of a poison jump from 12 to 30, particularly when after you fail it the cleric only has a 50/50 shot each round to remove it.
And that could happen with just one character using this tactic.
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In truth, the RAW does give each poison it's own check the instant it happens. The difference between the RAW and my suggestion is that while the save may be lower with the first few, the damage could be much greater. At least on that initial round.
Let's assume 5 spiders with a DC 14 1d2 strength poison all go on the same initiative. They all hit, the save is failed every time.
RAW
Initial Round:
1st Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
2nd Save DC 16, 1d2 strength damage
3rd Save DC 18, 1d2 strength damage
4th Save DC 20, 1d2 strength damage
5th Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage
2nd Round:
6th Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage
3rd Round:
7th Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage
All at Once variant
Initial Round (assuming all on same initiative):
1st Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage
2nd Round:
2nd Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage
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Anyhow, the RAW is listed. My recommendation was for a variant as it made things a bit easier to calculate. Hopefully my response helps clear things up.
In truth, the RAW is probably the best way to go, since it essentially treats everything as if it were on a slightly different initiative count and there is no guarantee the DM rolls for groups of monsters at the same time anyways.
Be warned, the first round of poison will be the most dangerous. Which actually does make some sense.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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I’ll try this…
Saves against poison occur in your turn. So in the case above the three spiders bite Valeros, then he makes the save on his initiative (effectively feeling the effects when he is about to act). If the assassin then poisoned him the DC would be higher on Valeros’ next turn, assuming he failed his save. It avoids the multiple saves, makes poison deadly (as it should be) AND also allows the party healer (wand wielder) to step in and help – so even a suddenly high DC of 30+ can be remedied. Means the GM needs to track the changing DC though. I think we’ll see a lot more use of antitoxin…
try going to FAQ section for the core book and go down to the gm section the developers put in a link that helped me alot.