That map is excellent! Thanks for all the analysis too gang.
Some nitpicky details I'd like to work out before I try summarizing what's been decided here:
Known: Golarian must be considered the same size as Earth, for the convenience of the Pathfinder designers. Some elements of the Inner Sea regional map(s) may fail to take this into account, but that should be considered fixable.
Would a fix include changing the map scale as given on the maps if that should prove mathematically necessary? (The Campaign Setting map scale is currently 106.667 miles per inch.)
Known: Golarion's equivalent of the Tropic of Cancer should run along the northern border of the Mana Wastes, between Nex and Geb.
The northern border of the Mana Wastes isn't a straight line, so more precision is called for here. For example, the northern border of the Mana Wastes at the eastern edge of the Wastes, or at the western edge, or where it crosses the U. River, etc.
Known: Golarion’s Prime Meridian will pass through Absalom; this placement will have been dictated by humans.
How recently was Absalom set as the international standard?
On Earth the longitude couldn't be usefully exploited until the 18th Century, though maps were drawn using longitude at least as far back as the 2nd Century when Ptolemy used the Canary Islands as Longtiude 0, and Hipparchos used Rhodes as Longtiude 0. Locations proposed and/or used for the Prime Meridian since then have included Great Pyramid at Giza, the Azores, Cape Verde, Rome, Jerusalem, St. Petersburg (Russia), Pisa, Paris, Philadelphia and four different lines running through Greenwich.
Creative Director
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Known: Golarian must be considered the same size as Earth, for the convenience of the Pathfinder designers. Some elements of the Inner Sea regional map(s) may fail to take this into account, but that should be considered fixable.
Would a fix include changing the map scale as given on the maps if that should prove mathematically necessary? (The Campaign Setting map scale is currently 106.667 miles per inch.)
The map scale won't ever change, because every product we've done assumes that scale and if we change it, that'd cause an unacceptable ripple effect of errors.
Known: Golarion's equivalent of the Tropic of Cancer should run along the northern border of the Mana Wastes, between Nex and Geb.
The northern border of the Mana Wastes isn't a straight line, so more precision is called for here. For example, the northern border of the Mana Wastes at the eastern edge of the Wastes, or at the western edge, or where it crosses the U. River, etc.
I'm more interested in making sure that Magnimar ends up being about where Seattle is and less interested in seeing the Mana Wastes sit on the Tropic of Cancer, honestly. If that means the Mana Wastes are north or south of the tropic, that's okay. It's certainly not a benchmark used in world by folks to define the Tropic of Cancer.
Known: Golarion’s Prime Meridian will pass through Absalom; this placement will have been dictated by humans.
How recently was Absalom set as the international standard?
Absalom was founded in 1 AR. That was just over 4,700 years ago from the current day. I have no idea when Absalom set the international standard, but it was probably a LOOOONG time ago.
It's worth remembering that one of the ways Golarion DOES differ from the real world is the fact that its recorded history is much longer, and there are empires and nations that have been doing their thing for a LOT longer. So Earth comparisons here are increasingly inaccurate.
I'm more interested in making sure that Magnimar ends up being about where Seattle is and less interested in seeing the Mana Wastes sit on the Tropic of Cancer, honestly. If that means the Mana Wastes are north or south of the tropic, that's okay. It's certainly not a benchmark used in world by folks to define the Tropic of Cancer.
Okay. Wes sounded pretty sure about the Mana Wastes when he posted a while back, but if Seattle trumps that, so be it. :)
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I'm more interested in making sure that Magnimar ends up being about where Seattle is and less interested in seeing the Mana Wastes sit on the Tropic of Cancer, honestly. If that means the Mana Wastes are north or south of the tropic, that's okay. It's certainly not a benchmark used in world by folks to define the Tropic of Cancer.Okay. Wes sounded pretty sure about the Mana Wastes when he posted a while back, but if Seattle trumps that, so be it. :)
As in, if Magnimar is about where Seattle is... the Mana Wastes should end up in the Tropic of Cancer, actually. That's what we found on our first attempt to do this in the office, anyway (although we MIGHT have used Portland, Oregon for Magnimar...)
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I'm more interested in making sure that Magnimar ends up being about where Seattle is and less interested in seeing the Mana Wastes sit on the Tropic of Cancer, honestly. If that means the Mana Wastes are north or south of the tropic, that's okay. It's certainly not a benchmark used in world by folks to define the Tropic of Cancer.
I know how keen you are on Magnimar = Seattle, but I should warn you of the ramification of that.
The original Mana Wastes = Tropic of Cancer (which I believe Wes started) pretty much has the inner sea in line with the Mediterranean (which it seems to be a clear analogy for.
Magnimar = Seattle would shift everything about 300 miles south. That would put the 'white snowy clouds ice cap' just off the northern coast of Scotland. And it would move Cheliax/Andor to Tunisia/North Africa.
I thinking keeping Maginmar at the Copenhagen point would be a better idea. I know we in the states think of anything north of our national border as 'frozen wasteland' but but that's not so much the case in Europe. I myself had always thought NJ was on a similar level to the mother country (England) and was surprised to find out latitude-wise we're in line with Spain.
Well, Vancouver, BC is about 100 miles North of Seattle as the Google flies...
Call it 150 miles, and that splits the difference, right?
Golarion's weather/wind patterns could be more of a hybrid of Euro/Med/Atlantic and North America/Pacific, which combined with the ~150 mile shift, should be enough to let everything work, right?
The number crunching I did on this a few days ago showed (me, anyway) that there is no way to meet all three of these conditions with the existing map:
* Seattle = Magnimar @ 47.6 deg N
* Northern Mana Waste = Tropic of Cancer @ 23 deg N
* White area at the top of the map = Arctic Circle @ 66.5 deg N
And that in fact the only way to exactly meet any two of them required changing the map scale. So I'd like to think it comes down to which single one of those three items is least likely to create cognitive dissonance for the majority of players and GMs. I would also assume that would mean "correctly" placing Europe and North Africa even if Seattle gets displaced, rather than the reverse.
Of course, if this were my game world, I'd pick the one that avoided cognitive dissonance for myself, and everyone else could just live with it. :)
I can work with it either way; when I started this I wasn't expecting to contribute to a design discussion, I was just seeking information I hoped already existed, so I could plot lines on my map for my own amusement. I was very pleased to find that other people are interested in this sort of thing, and I'll aid the discussion in any way I can, but basically I'm just looking for a definite, official starting point for drawing latitude lines, after which the [curved] lines of longitude can be calculated and drawn starting from Absalom.
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I thinking keeping Maginmar at the Copenhagen point would be a better idea. I know we in the states think of anything north of our national border as 'frozen wasteland' but but that's not so much the case in Europe. I myself had always thought NJ was on a similar level to the mother country (England) and was surprised to find out latitude-wise we're in line with Spain.
The reason Copenhagen isn't frozen wasteland and Spain's climate is more like Mexico's than Newfoundland's is the very robust Gulf Stream that brings warm, wet air north to Europe. Remove the Gulf Stream, and you get an ice age, where places like Scotland and Copenhagen are nigh uninhabitable, Spain becomes wholly temperate like US Massachussetts and Seattle, and the Sahara is a well-watered grassland.
Ice Age really is the way to go given what we've got.
EDIT: Also, I suspect that if the 8 panel map covers as large an area as it should, you CAN'T get away with a single map scale AND have your degrees of latitude remain consistent. Are we taking this into account when trying to match the three reference points?
I suspect that if the 8 panel map covers as large an area as it should, you CAN'T get away with a single map scale AND have your degrees of latitude remain consistent. Are we taking this into account when trying to match the three reference points?
Hmmm...actually, no. At least, I was not. And I guess that more or less forces the use of the cylindrical equidistant projection for the [eventual] world map; it's the only one I can find that doesn't require recalculating the spacing between latitude lines as you progress away from the equator, and is conveniently rectangular.
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And I guess that more or less forces the use of the cylindrical equidistant projection for the [eventual] world map; it's the only one I can find that doesn't require recalculating the spacing between latitude lines as you progress away from the equator, and is conveniently rectangular.
And since no one is liable to be using our map of Golarion for navigation or determining national boundaries, I have no problems with using a plate carreé map.
For non-map nerds reading this thread - the cylindrical equidistant projection produces shape AND area distortions as illustrated here. Handy for your basic RPG needs, but lousy for doing any WORK with.
The number crunching I did on this a few days ago showed (me, anyway) that there is no way to meet all three of these conditions with the existing map:
* Seattle = Magnimar @ 47.6 deg N
* Northern Mana Waste = Tropic of Cancer @ 23 deg N
* White area at the top of the map = Arctic Circle @ 66.5 deg N
Having the Mana Wastes be at Tropic of Cancer doesn't make much sense comparing Earth to Golarion's Map:
DIRECTLY WEST of the Mana Wastes are the Sodden Lands, Mwangi Expanse, and Kaava Lands which are the West Africa-Congo Basin analogues (which are signifigantly SOUTH of the Tropic of Cancer in real-world)
Likewise, the Golarion Map depicts the landscape southward from Katapesh as signifigantly green in contrast to more desertified areas of northern Garund. Real-world Tropic of Cancer runs thru Southern Egypt, which Okeno Island seems to line-up with well.
I think Katapesh fits well as an analogue for Djibouti/Horn of Africa (~11*N real-world), which puts KATAPESH 10* or so SOUTH of the Tropic of Cancer! Going with that, Geb and Nex would become more akin to Kenya & Uganda, which matches the map's greener vegetation, and Jalmeray is clearly the Madagascar (Afro-Indian) analogue, though moved North 10-15* or so.
I'm not exactly sure how it impacts things given the above,
but having Golarion be in an Ice Age of sorts seems fine to me, it kindof even hints that there might be ANCIENT WIERD STUFF underneath all that Ice up North, which doesn't seem a horrible thing from the perspective of adventurous types...
Magnimar = Seattle would shift everything about 300 miles south. That would put the 'white snowy clouds ice cap' just off the northern coast of Scotland. And it would move Cheliax/Andor to Tunisia/North Africa.
Europe is heated by Ocean currents off the Gulf Stream (particularly England). Moving the med 300 miles South can work if you're willing to change the average global temperature a bit and play with some Ocean current (i.e. just handwave the climate).
Europe is heated by Ocean currents off the Gulf Stream (particularly England). Moving the med 300 miles South can work if you're willing to change the average global temperature a bit and play with some Ocean current (i.e. just handwave the climate).
AKA give Avistan the climate/sea-current patterns of North America/ Eastern Pacific AKA the Seattle analogue.
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The map is 3,085 from the southern edge of the border to the northern edge of the border. By border I am NOT including all the text and paper, just the parts that are map. East to west the map is 2,320 miles.
In photoshop I figure the map was about 2,880 miles N/S and about 2,160. That is a difference of 205 miles N/S and 160 miles E/W and the photoshop measurements were not near as accurate as the globe measurements. So, for my personal opinion it is pretty darn close to scale.
I have Absalom at almost exactly 0 degrees longitude. Magnimar is at 50 degrees (2.7 degrees off from Seattle or 186 miles off). The Mana Wastes are at 24 degrees while the Tropic of Cancer is at 23.26 degrees, so off by .74 degrees (or off by 51 miles).
You'll notice if you compare the Arctic Circle that it is not at the edge of the Crown of the World, but the frozen areas of Greenland are in line with the bottom edge of the Crown, so it can still be icy there.
All in all I would say the map is pretty darn close and accurate. Scale has been kept as closely as possible for going from a plane to a globe (bound to be distortion, no possible way to avoid that).
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One could also fudge the latitude of the Arctic Circle and the Tropic of Cancer. They're 23.2 from the pole and equator because that's the axial tilt of the Earth. One could tilt Golarion a little more or a little less, narrowing or widening the climate bands, without too much change to the Earth/Golarion parallels.
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One could also fudge the latitude of the Arctic Circle and the Tropic of Cancer. They're 23.2 from the pole and equator because that's the axial tilt of the Earth. One could tilt Golarion a little more or a little less, narrowing or widening the climate bands, without too much change to the Earth/Golarion parallels.
Earth has a 2 degree axial variation over 40,000 years, so earth can have a tilt easily from 21 to 25 degrees. So I see no reason Golarion can't have an axial tilt like that or even greater.
And I too, see Golarion as having a northern continent instead of a southern one. For now, I have already created a city upon the Crown of the World, called Ice Crown. It's a tall city with a massive ice wall, and buildings carved out of living ice. I am using it, for now, as the central trading hub of the Crown of the World.
I have questions about why Magnimar is positioned on the same latitude as Seattle, WA.
I know it is Paizo's home base, but was this done for climate reasons? It should be noted that if the Inner sea is roughly analogous to the Mediterranean, and the Steaming Sea is like to the north atlantic, than oceanic currents are just as important to determining climate as latitude is. Arguably more!
So what is the specific motivation for the Seattle-Magnimar benchmark?
I also wonder about the Mana Waste: Tropic of Cancer correllation.
As I mentioned in my last post, it just doesn't seem to match the real-world analogues very well (Mana Wastes seem like they should be at similar latitude to Uganda, not Southern Egypt and Mecca: The "Egyptian"/Heavy desert area runs out north of Katapesh)
I'm not enough of a map geek to understand how shifting the tropic of cancer north to Okeno would affect Korvosa...???
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In photoshop I figure the map was about 2,880 miles N/S and about 2,160. That is a difference of 205 miles N/S and 160 miles E/W and the photoshop measurements were not near as accurate as the globe measurements. So, for my personal opinion it is pretty darn close to scale.
You'll notice if you compare the Arctic Circle that it is not at the edge of the Crown of the World, but the frozen areas of Greenland are in line with the bottom edge of the Crown, so it can still be icy there.
All in all I would say the map is pretty darn close and accurate. Scale has been kept as closely as possible for going from a plane to a globe (bound to be distortion, no possible way to avoid that).
I don't know if a full 2 inches of distortion n/s and an inch e/w is "close enough", but I'm not a professional cartographer to know how good that really is. Nice job though in showing us the shape distortions the flat projection gave us as well. I'm satisfied that you've given us as close to a "true" projection on a globe as we're likely to get for a while.
If Seattle is Magnimar, then Nome, Alaska is UNDER the ice cap at the top of the map. While not as far south as the fullest reaches of our most recent Ice Age, that's still a large and powerful icecap that's going to be blowing cold and dry winds south onto the continent; to keep Varisia's climate more like Ireland or Northern Germany than Alaska or eastern Siberia, you'll need a warm water current similar to the Gulf Stream sailing right up that way, and it'll need to be REALLY warm, or really powerful, to counter that big honking ice cap to the north. Northern Avistan is also probably pretty stormy and prone to weather extremes, even with the mountains to break up and slow the north winds.
We've got our deserts mostly where they should be, and the Mwangi Expanse would right around where it should be given what we already know about at least one northern warm water current. Sure, the Sudan and Mexico are the 23rd parallel north, but so are Bangladesh and the Bahamas. It's all a matter of ocean currents and wind cycles. Since we know that Golarion looks the way it does, and not like Earth, we can assume there's a reason - someone with the right knowledge could probably start puzzling out some air flow and sea current charts from this map. :)
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I think the biggest problem is the scale. The inner sea is an obviously analogue to the Mediterranean sea and the locations/climates were all based around it.
However the Mediterranean is 2,315 mi across while (using the Gazetteer map scale) is 1,474 miles across (or using the CS scale 1,520 miles).
Upping the the Gazetteer scale to 1 inch = 200 miles as opposed to 1.75 = 240 miles (which would essentially be 1.75 = 350 miles) might make the difference that could solve everything.
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However the Mediterranean is 2,315 mi across while (using the Gazetteer map scale) is 1,474 miles across (or using the CS scale 1,520 miles).
Yes? And? It's an analogue, not a duplicate. The climates around the Inner Sea are not precisely matched to their real world analogies, either.
1.75 = 240 miles (which would essentially be 1.75 = 350 miles) might make the difference that could solve everything.
Uh. Whut?
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I don't know if a full 2 inches of distortion n/s and an inch e/w is "close enough", but I'm not a professional cartographer to know how good that really is. Nice job though in showing us the shape distortions the flat projection gave us as well. I'm satisfied that you've given us as close to a "true" projection on a globe as we're likely to get for a while.
If Seattle is Magnimar, then Nome, Alaska is UNDER the ice cap at the top of the map.
Thanks, I appreciate the compliment. I can get it down to within a few miles I expect, but as it is I am dealing with fractions of degrees already (not using inches). I expect I will continue to tinker with it just to see how accurate I can get it :)
And ummmm I don't think you realize, Nome, Alaska is not part of Golarion... Golarion is not actually Earth... :) *read that with the humor intended- darn internet, people can't tell when you're kidding*
I think the biggest problem is the scale. The inner sea is an obviously analogue to the Mediterranean sea and the locations/climates were all based around it.
I think the biggest problem is people want Golarion to equal Earth. I think the Inner Sea is inspired by the Med, but not supposed to be a stand in, analogue, or representation of the Med.
If you look at the map, as it is laid over the globe, it really does everything wanted.
1) We have an ice cap that works and is plausible. Remember Golarion is NOT Earth, so all the requirements of Gulf Streams, Climate, Winds, etc are really unnecessary. The climate on earth is not that stable and still vastly not understood.
2) We have Magnimar is approximately corresponding in latitude to Seattle. This I feel is a minor concern. But it is a requirement by James, and regardless of my opinion, I am darned well going to try and get exactly what James wants, cause he's the man.
3) We have Absalom as the Prime Meridian. Granted, I could just lay the map anywhere and say the Prime Meridian runs through Absalom. But since I am using a globe of Earth, it is really easier that I lay Absalom across our Prime Meridian.
4) We have the Mana Wastes corresponding to the Tropic of Cancer. I seriously do not understand the complaint about the Mana Wastes being at the Tropic. The real Tropic of Cancer runs through southern Egypt. But Golarion is not actually Earth and should not be expected to line up exactly equal to Earth. While Osirion is inspired by Egypt, it is not Egypt. Geographically, Osirion is about half the size of Egypt, anyway. To have Osirion the same size as Egypt, then they need to annex land all the way down to half way down Nex.
So, what the map of Golarion is showing us is, that we have a plausible arctic zone, and down to a plausible Tropical zone. This is exactly what the map should be telling us. It is also telling us, just how much of the globe is left unmapped, which is an awful lot!
I expected complaints to be more along the lines that now Magnimar is 285 miles from Korvosa instead of 400 miles! That is due to the distortion of a flat map being applied over a globe.
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I wanted to include this view so everyone can get an idea how little of Golarion is mapped out so far.
So much unknown! And that is just the northern view!
This view also illustrates to me just how HUGE the Crown of the World would be if it really did cover the entirety of the Arctic Circle and then some! No wonder people go that route for trade, it is a vast area! lol as an American, the first thing that came to my mind was, "Imagine the resources!" lol
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Just to chime in, since mag is suppose to be like Seattle basically. To me that suggest that the climate is more like North America than Europe despite the land mass looking more like Europe around the med.
So I wouldn't mind seeing a verion of the map dropped over North America with Mag roughly in the same place as Seattle and see what the equiv weather would be like.
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However the Mediterranean is 2,315 mi across while (using the Gazetteer map scale) is 1,474 miles across (or using the CS scale 1,520 miles).Yes? And? It's an analogue, not a duplicate. The climates around the Inner Sea are not precisely matched to their real world analogies, either.
OH YES SOMEONE THAT GETS IT! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! :)
*HUGS AND SLOBBERY WET BEARD KISSES!*
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Just to chime in, since mag is suppose to be like Seattle basically. To me that suggest that the climate is more like North America than Europe despite the land mass looking more like Europe around the med.
So I wouldn't mind seeing a verion of the map dropped over North America with Mag roughly in the same place as Seattle and see what the equiv weather would be like.
Magnimar is closer to Vancouver than Seattle in this, but I figure, Seattle... Vancouver... about the same not much difference between them except coffee and hockey. :)
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Just to chime in, since mag is suppose to be like Seattle basically. To me that suggest that the climate is more like North America than Europe despite the land mass looking more like Europe around the med.
So I wouldn't mind seeing a verion of the map dropped over North America with Mag roughly in the same place as Seattle and see what the equiv weather would be like.
See I am wondering if that isn't more the temperature, weather patterns ect they had in mind since Mag is where Seattle is. Which to me suggest they was thinking similar weather and temps.
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See I am wondering if that isn't more the temperature, weather patterns ect they had in mind since Mag is where Seattle is. Which to me suggest they was thinking similar weather and temps.Just to chime in, since mag is suppose to be like Seattle basically. To me that suggest that the climate is more like North America than Europe despite the land mass looking more like Europe around the med.
So I wouldn't mind seeing a verion of the map dropped over North America with Mag roughly in the same place as Seattle and see what the equiv weather would be like.
Yep I know what ya mean. I can look at that map and go, yep that area is wet and cold and this area... well if it weren't in the Pacific, would be quite warm and dry... lol
Which means Qadira is HOT AND HUMID and lots of swampy terrain! I could live with that lol Alas I think they want Qadira to be more like Arabia... just HOT... but they do have a swamp!
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However the Mediterranean is 2,315 mi across while (using the Gazetteer map scale) is 1,474 miles across (or using the CS scale 1,520 miles).Yes? And? It's an analogue, not a duplicate. The climates around the Inner Sea are not precisely matched to their real world analogies, either.
OH YES SOMEONE THAT GETS IT! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! :)
*HUGS AND SLOBBERY WET BEARD KISSES!*
What I'm getting at is that when they designed the Inner Sea region, they likely thought it took up far more of the world (about the equivalent of Europe and North Africa) then what your globe shows.
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1) We have an ice cap that works and is plausible. Remember Golarion is NOT Earth, so all the requirements of Gulf Streams, Climate, Winds, etc are really unnecessary. The climate on earth is not that stable and still vastly not understood.
Uhm. While Golarion is not Earth, Golarion is Earth-like. You either have a current of warm ocean water being pushed north towards Varisia, or you have a magical being doing all the work of making Varisia temperate like Ireland and not the friggin' Yukon Territory.
The CLIMATE on Earth is understood well enough for us to know why Ireland and the Yukon have different climates. It should absolutely be possible for a climatologist to determine what currents, winds, and rainfall patterns would be necessary to give us the Inner Sea region we know. And if Sarenrae has to make Katapesh a desert instead of a chapparal, then so be it. Because Katapesh is a freakin' desert.
We have to make the data fit Golarion, not make Golarion fit the (Earth) data.
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Hrm, seeing as the inner sea is open on both ends (unlike the mediterranean) it is possible that a current goes from the Obari, through the Inner Sea and out to the Arcadian bring warm air with it. Don't know what impact that would have on the deserts on either side (Qadira/Osirion)
I bet that giant hurricane has some environmental impact as well.
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1) We have an ice cap that works and is plausible. Remember Golarion is NOT Earth, so all the requirements of Gulf Streams, Climate, Winds, etc are really unnecessary. The climate on earth is not that stable and still vastly not understood.
Uhm. While Golarion is not Earth, Golarion is Earth-like. You either have a current of warm ocean water being pushed north towards Varisia, or you have a magical being doing all the work of making Varisia temperate like Ireland and not the friggin' Yukon Territory.
The CLIMATE on Earth is understood well enough for us to know why Ireland and the Yukon have different climates. It should absolutely be possible for a climatologist to determine what currents, winds, and rainfall patterns would be necessary to give us the Inner Sea region we know. And if Sarenrae has to make Katapesh a desert instead of a chapparal, then so be it. Because Katapesh is a freakin' desert.
We have to make the data fit Golarion, not make Golarion fit the (Earth) data.
Exactly, we have to make the data fit Golarion. Earth doesn't play much role in the equation. For example, Earth doesn't have a permanent hurricane of the coast of Africa. I expect that does something to the climate. And, seriously, does magic affect the climate? Could they have Global Warming due to magic? No reason they can't... Would they even recognize it? If the climate were cooler due to the ice in the north, but warmed due to magic would they realize the climate paradox?
I think a climatologist has enough knowledge to figure out why some things work the way they do, but not absolutely with certainty. They can't figure out climate and weather with less than a 30-50% range of error unless they go back and look at it after the fact.
But if you handed a climatologist the map of Golarion, and said I want Magnimar to have a climate like Seattle, an ice cap low across the north, and a desert region across Northern Garund, and a permanent hurricane off the western coast of Garund... I bet he's going to look at you and ask what you are smoking and ask for the rest of the map.
but I bet ya he's really going to run away and call the insane asylum to pick you up! lol oh lordy lol lol
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Hrm, seeing as the inner sea is open on both ends (unlike the mediterranean) it is possible that a current goes from the Obari, through the Inner Sea and out to the Arcadian bring warm air with it. Don't know what impact that would have on the deserts on either side (Qadira/Osirion)
I bet that giant hurricane has some environmental impact as well.
A low ice shelf, a permanent hurricane, and an open Mediterranean, all in that itty bitty sliver of a world we can see... with no idea what the rest of the globe looks like...
I'd say it makes for some messed up climate! But with so little to go on, no way we can figure out what is going on.
For example, I assume the hurricane is drawing in warm, moist air and creates quite a current. Now the question is, is it rotating clockwise or counter-clockwise (being magically created it could go any way it wants and could flip flop at times if it wanted). If clockwise, it MIGHT be pulling water from the Inner Sea and down the coast of Garund, or it could be going counter-clockwise and bringing water into the Inner-sea from the Arcandian Ocean.
And then there is the Arcadian Ocean. With a low ice shelf, I would assume the North Arcadian is quite cool. But then again, maybe not. There may be vast underwater volcanoes, or even underwater cities that heat the water up. Or perhaps there is a portal to the elemental plane of fire in the North Arcandian Ocean and it is really especially hot, but the Crown of the World has a connection to the Plane of Air and is particularly cold.
In other words, unless we map every inch of the planet, and account for the sea bed as well, there is just absolutely no way we can even come close to guessing anything about what the climate would be like.
I'm not sure the best climatologists on Earth could make heads or tails out of permanent hurricanes, portals to elemental planes, underwater cities... who knows what else.
So, why knock yourself out trying to figure it out? Unless you just find that fun and if you do... you are seriously weird :)
makes more sense to me to just go with what James et al say and accept it as gospel.
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And now it should be apparent why we avoided ever officially indicating anything about latitude and longitude on the map, and why it's a curious thought exercise but for now it's a can of worms I don't want to fully open. Eventually we'll get around to mapping the whole planet, probably sooner than we'd want to have to! :-)
You know, I don't mind a little fantasy in my fantasy. Anyone remember the map of the Known World for Mystara? Wasn't the desert kingdom of Ylaraum just south of the Vikingesque Jarldoms? I seem to remember the designers chalking it all up to a magic field. No biggie....
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You know, I don't mind a little fantasy in my fantasy. Anyone remember the map of the Known World for Mystara? Wasn't the desert kingdom of Ylaraum just south of the Vikingesque Jarldoms? I seem to remember the designers chalking it all up to a magic field. No biggie....
Yep! Mystara was my all time favorite setting before Golarion came out. And yeah the desert kingdom bordered the northern snow realm.
For my personal game I am putting Mystara inside Golarion. Lots of changes though. Using Christopher West's Lands of Mystery Map from the last Dungeon, using the cultures from Mystara, and still deciding upon the religion. Might go with the original setting deities might not.
MY world is a magical one :) Not just a wet lump of rock. :)
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And now it should be apparent why we avoided ever officially indicating anything about latitude and longitude on the map, and why it's a curious thought exercise but for now it's a can of worms I don't want to fully open. Eventually we'll get around to mapping the whole planet, probably sooner than we'd want to have to! :-)
You take it too seriously. We annoy you just say "Magic, our world, so there." No problem. I for one am always willing to accept what the game designers say and go with it. If I don't like it I can change it in my personal game and we are all happy. So far, no problem :)
@Krome: I brought up the question about Tropic of Cancer because other than the fact it seems to have been "thrown out there", it DOESN'T actually seem to be the 'canon' latitude for Mana Wastes yet, just as the official "scale" doesn't seem set in stone yet... But what do I know?
What I was talking about was beyond just the issue of Osirion/Egypt/Katapesh/Somalia, but the latitude of Mwangi Expanse/Kaava Lands is like-wise further North than would make sense. Setting the Tropic of Cancer so low on the map also means the remaining southerly land/surface area will extend much further than is 'intuitive'. Everything's possible, but I'm trying to understand the implications of locating the Tropic at the Mana Wastes (which may not be set in stone).
I looked at your latest Google.Earth map of Avistan over Europe and was going to try messing around with Google.Earth myself (I tried d/l'ing it, but my current connection is blocking it's ports), but if you wanted to try this out yourself, please do:
The distance scale doesn't seem set in stone, and in your image the Avistan/ Garund map seems VERY small compared to Europe & Africa, right? Roughly eye-balling it, I figured scaling up the map ~10% or so: Leaving the Northern ice-shelf where it is, that puts Absalom more at the latitude of Alexandria, Egypt, but puts the border of Osirion/Katapesh more or less at the Egyptian/Sudan border... (and puts Mwangi Expanse closer to Nigeria's latitude and Geb/Nex closer to Kenya/Uganda) The northern Inner Sea countries (Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor) more or less still line up with Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, though the Inner Sea's southern coastline is south of where the Mediterranean's southern coast lies. So that's a variant.
Separately, based on your Avistan/Garund: North/Central America overlay:
(not adjusting the scale you're using at all in this case)
I noticed if you move it South 10* or so from where you have it, that would put all of Alaska (except maybe the very end of islands off canada) under the Ice Shelf, but puts Korvosa roughly around Seattle/Vancouver. Interestingly, southern Hudson Bay is then roughly the same latitude as Mendev/Brevoy's "Lake of Mists and Veils". Abendengo's Eye is around the latitude of Florida/Bermuda Triangle, Mwangi Expansi/Sargava stretch from the latitude of Southern Mexico to Northern Colombia, and the bottom edge of the map is roughly the Equator, which seems convenient/elegant.
What do you think of those set-ups, is there anything specifically precluding those?
Yep! Mystara was my all time favorite setting before Golarion came out. And yeah the desert kingdom bordered the northern snow realm.
For my personal game I am putting Mystara inside Golarion. Lots of changes though. Using Christopher West's Lands of Mystery Map from the last Dungeon, using the cultures from Mystara, and still deciding upon the religion. Might go with the original setting deities might not.
MY world is a magical one :) Not just a wet lump of rock. :)
sorry for the threadjack..... but I would love to see how you tie all of this together. Mystara is my favorite setting of all time. I still get a little teary eyed when I crack open the old gazeteers or the Wrath of the Immortals box set. I love that big giant map of mystery too. Though there is no substitute for the old known world hex maps. You gotta post the map when you're done dropping in the cultures. Cool stuff.
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[Mystra threadjack] I loved Glantri, with the wizards who studied dracomancy, etc. They felt kind of like the seeds of ideas that later grew into Kits and Prestige Classes. [/threadjack]
Yeah, that Crown of the World ice city notion sounds awesome. And under it? There must be Shoggoth. This is non-negotiable. :)