So we've just finished playing the introductory adventure to the Scales of War. Our group is comprised mostly of veterans but is our first foray into 4.0. Our characters were crafted with our usual care, with engaging back-stories built around the Elsir Vale (many of us have played Red Hand of Doom). Despite our die-hard 3.5 loyalty, we had a lot of fun playing our characters and getting into 4.0. The ruleset was palatable and my Dwarven Druid made my day.
The problem: The adventure was rather - lacking. This is not our DM's fault (he's quite good). Rather, the dungeon felt forced, the villain was stale, and the story hackneyed. The encounters were not balanced and we missed a lot of things because of failed skill checks. We ended up blowing up most of the dungeon with alchemical items because we had been beaten back by the various undead.
I never expected the adventure path to be as good as Paizo's, but we were all a bit disappointed with the way it played out. The DM has informed us that this adventure was a test-run, and generally independent from the rest of the campaign. We're debating now if we want to keep going with the path or have our DM whip something else up.
For those of you who have played the later adventures: Are they worth our time? Have others disliked the initial adventure and liked the later ones? Did we have an abberrant experience and the adventures are otherwise solid?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. And please - no spoilers.
My table top group just started the second part, and are having fun. We did not play the first part, the GM did not like the adventure setup, and so we made level 3 characters and started with part 2. Not gonna put any spoilers in, or anything, but, it's been pretty cool thus far. I'd advise sticking with it for a couple more parts at least and see what your own group thinks.
As someone running SoW currently, I guess I'm kinda qualified to answer in here:
The first module can be somewhat wonky. As a warning, the third seems problematic as well. That said, I sense a gradually increase in quality with each release; the second one is good, as is the fourth. From the fifth on, the installments become great, especially in paragon from what I've seen.
Of course, that's just my own opinion. My group seemed to enjoy the first one so that suggests we might have different tastes.
Hope that helps! :)
The first module seems widely viewed as the weakest one in the series which is kinda sad really because they had alot of material to pull on. I have really went out of my way to work up background material to make the first module more appealing.
As the poster above me said after the first one the quality begins to interest and continues to rise.
Recently finished the first adventure (as a player). We had fun, but it was a little patchy as a module - probably not helped by us slightly losing track of who we were supposed to be rescuing and why. Nobody's fault, it was just a long time between sessions.
Our DM mentioned that he thinks part two is a more engrossing affair. It worked out just fine really, as we all built ourselves characters with the preview versions of Shaman and so on, so spent a lot of time working out what the powers did. Discovering you've got a combat bear at your disposal will do a lot to mask any inadequacies in the plot-line.
Having a PC die in the first room of the dungeon (2 Rage Drake crits!), missing 2/3 of a session and being drunk for the remaining third didn't lead to me following it very well. :D
I loved the beginning in the town, if that helps...
I haven't played Scales of War, but I've taken a pretty good glance at all the adventures. I agree that the first one is probably one of the weakest, and some of the others look pretty good. However, I don't think they are as good as the Paizo paths, and I'd be more inclined to convert one of them (which I've been doing with Second Darkness). Also Scales of War is 18 adventures, and most of the adventures seem pretty long. I just can't see myself being able to maintain interest long enough to slog through all of that.
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Well, my group has been having some tumultuous times recently, so we've basically disintegrated a little more than midway through Part 2. So I can't share much beyond that.
From a purely DM perspective, I though the first adventure was, well, not worth the time. We had already played a couple of short adventures with the characters, and I thought the first adventure might be necessary for the story to make sense - which was completely and totally wrong. Since I was kind of in a rush to keep things from falling apart I prepped the first adventure without carefully checking the tie-ins, scaled the number of encounters back and made them individually stronger so we came out the other end at the appropriate level, and we still had a horrible time. The hostage rescue thing was a nice angle - and about the only thing the group liked (including the RP in town). The dungeon crawl was rated just sort of 'bleh' to 'I never want to see this god-forsaken hellhole again'.
The second entry was better - I really enjoyed some of the detailing for the city, and the atmosphere is generally much better. The pacing's also better (in my opinion at least), and there are a couple of really cool battles in there. The maps also seem to be generally more open, which was a boon for our large party.
All in all, I think it could go either way - it seems to have a rocky start followed by a solid continuation, especially if what other people say is true. It seems it's a shame that campaign fell apart from me. Hope it goes better for your group!
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I've passed them on to the group and we're going to continue with the Scales of War for at least a while longer.
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Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I've passed them on to the group and we're going to continue with the Scales of War for at least a while longer.
Here's a final thought. I haven't played Scales of War, didn't even look at the instalments closely after the first one (for reasons others have specified) but: even if your DM decides against continuing with Scales, tell him to have a good look at one particular instalment in the series - "Hales of the Bitter Glass" by Kevin Kulp. People on ENworld have repeatedly hailed it as the most roleplay-intense module that's been released for 4E so far, and if your group is into that then I think you'd miss out by not giving it at shot.
Here's a final thought. I haven't played Scales of War, didn't even look at the instalments closely after the first one (for reasons others have specified) but: even if your DM decides against continuing with Scales, tell him to have a good look at one particular instalment in the series - "Hales of the Bitter Glass" by Kevin Kulp. People on ENworld have repeatedly hailed it as the most roleplay-intense module that's been released for 4E so far, and if your group is into that then I think you'd miss out by not giving it at shot.
Excellent. Thanks for the heads up. I know my DM has been rather unhappy with some of the adventures - especially how they tie together. He's been unspecific on some parts (to keep us from spoilers), but apparently there've been some real problems with the way things tie together.
That being said, I will definitely pass along your recommendation. I'd love to really get into something that lets the system shine.
Part of the question we're trying to answer is: Should we experience 4E through Scales of War or not? From the responses to my question, it sounds like we should. I just want to make sure we're giving the system it's due before passing any judgment.
That and a Dwarven Druid is far too much fun to play.
Here's a final thought. I haven't played Scales of War, didn't even look at the instalments closely after the first one (for reasons others have specified) but: even if your DM decides against continuing with Scales, tell him to have a good look at one particular instalment in the series - "Hales of the Bitter Glass" by Kevin Kulp. People on ENworld have repeatedly hailed it as the most roleplay-intense module that's been released for 4E so far, and if your group is into that then I think you'd miss out by not giving it at shot.Excellent. Thanks for the heads up. I know my DM has been rather unhappy with some of the adventures - especially how they tie together. He's been unspecific on some parts (to keep us from spoilers), but apparently there've been some real problems with the way things tie together.
That being said, I will definitely pass along your recommendation. I'd love to really get into something that lets the system shine.
Part of the question we're trying to answer is: Should we experience 4E through Scales of War or not? From the responses to my question, it sounds like we should. I just want to make sure we're giving the system it's due before passing any judgment.
That and a Dwarven Druid is far too much fun to play.
If your DM isn't aware, I've setup a thread on the WotC official forums re: crafting a cohesive overarching plotline for SoW. There's also a wiki. These are spoiler-heavy for players but your DM would probably appreciate the link (I hope!)
We are running SoW with some modifications:
1) get rid of adventure 1
2) re-locate at Nentir Vale: we actually used Keep on the Shadowfell (modified) as the intro adventure. Hints there led to Sarshan's activities. If Hammerfast becomes Overlook and Brindol becomes Winterhaven, everything's quite fine (East becomes West in the map)
3) adventure 2 is excellent; 3-4 were also quite interesting for the novelty of the setting.
Our change to Nentir Vale covered a problem which designers clearly overlooked: the Elsir Vale has a perfect geographical fit in the pre-Spellplague FR (in the magnificent Red Hand adventure, where location in the Faerun map is suggested; I think that the Elsir map is actually designed to fit in southern Faerun). My group had played the original mega-adventure in the FR setting location, so suspension of disbelief was hard when re-creating the adventure in a different generic setting, as the Elsir Vale in the FR is now a spellscarred wasteland.
Pity, pity, as it would have been a great hook for veteran FR players who enjoyed Red Hand of Doom!
Pity, pity, as it would have been a great hook for veteran FR players who enjoyed Red Hand of Doom!
Thanks for the tips!
RHoD is one of our favorite adventures of all time. The "war" feel of it really reasonated with my players - we're enjoying being back in the same area but curious as to how much it will factor in.
I agree - I would like to see such an adventure in the old Realms.
Sorry for the brief threadjack, but could you tell me why you thought Thunderspire labyrinth was a campaign killer? I've been thinking of trying to work it into a homebrew Nentir Vale campaign I want to run and I'm wondering what about it you thought was so bad.
I would suggest that you keep playing Scales of War. I am running it, group just hit 11th level, and it's been good but not great.
Pros:
- The Low level adventures are better than Keep on the Shadowfell and Thunderspire Labyrinth. Thunderspire, in my experience, is a total campaign killer. The Horned Hold will rip all the gaming passion from your soul. It is utterly dreadful.
- The second Scales of War adventure is awesome. The final series of encounters are legendary.
- Overlook, the city, is really cool. Definitely wander around and get to know the districts. It's one of the best things about the whole path.
- The adventures I'm getting to now both look to be awesome. Beyond the Mottled Tower will give my party much-desired revenge against an old enemy. And Haven of the Bitter Glass is looking like a path-saving mini-masterpiece, if your party is actually looking to do some role-playing.Cons:
- Official 4e adventures take a long, long time. Individual encounters can take much longer than an hour, even if every player is focused and even if your DM waves the battle off when it's clear the PCs have won.
- While I personally liked the third adventure in the SOW path, lots of people hate it. The plot is weak. But IMO, the place you go to is extremely cool and makes up for it.
- The overarching story barely connects at all. If your DM doesn't adjust the plot, the players are left feeling like they don't know what's going on, or who the uber-bad guy is, or anything. By the time things are revealed, nobody cares.
- The character backgrounds provided in Dragon magazine supposedly connect the PCs to the path. They don't. It's all up to your DM to link them.If you're looking to play a 4e campaign, Scales is a good choice. The official path (Shadowfell-Thunderspire-Pyramid-etc) to me doesn't look like fun until it gets high level, starting with nightwyrm tower (and kingdom of the ghouls - I cannot wait to run that!).
Converting a paizo path is another way to go, but that is a lot of work. I...
I'm not convinced you should. Scales of War seems like a huge time commitment to get through the whole thing, and from what people seem to be saying most think it's good, but not great. Why run play something that isn't great when there is some much great stuff out there? Scott Bett's Rise of the Runelords conversion blog is extremely thorough and well done if you want to run a good AP, but don't have time to convert one of the 3E one's you might consider checking that out. I'm currently running Second Darkness in 4E, and I haven't found the conversion work particularly difficult. It's not taking me anymore work than it took me to run Savage Tide in 3E (as I did just as much modification to the stats blocks for that AP and I was even using the same system).
Here's a final thought. I haven't played Scales of War, didn't even look at the instalments closely after the first one (for reasons others have specified) but: even if your DM decides against continuing with Scales, tell him to have a good look at one particular instalment in the series - "Hales of the Bitter Glass" by Kevin Kulp. People on ENworld have repeatedly hailed it as the most roleplay-intense module that's been released for 4E so far, and if your group is into that then I think you'd miss out by not giving it at shot.Excellent. Thanks for the heads up. I know my DM has been rather unhappy with some of the adventures - especially how they tie together. He's been unspecific on some parts (to keep us from spoilers), but apparently there've been some real problems with the way things tie together.
That being said, I will definitely pass along your recommendation. I'd love to really get into something that lets the system shine.
Part of the question we're trying to answer is: Should we experience 4E through Scales of War or not? From the responses to my question, it sounds like we should. I just want to make sure we're giving the system it's due before passing any judgment.
That and a Dwarven Druid is far too much fun to play.
Just to continue the threadjack a while longer.
We're just getting to the end of Thunderspire now and we've enjoyed it. I'm playing in it, not running it and had a very good time. We're a seven strong group and it's true that some of the encounters in the Horned Hold were extremely aggravating because of the map layout, BUT - the Horned Hold is where we learned how long a 4e party can last without taking an extended rest. It's a long time.
By the end, we were pretty much down to a single figure of surges between us and nothing fancy left in the powers tank, so we had to think on our feet and that added a lot of edge to the battles. We started at level 5 and were about 60XP off level 6 by the time we'd cleaned the place out with no extended rest.
Well of Demons was very good and has some interesting encounters. The biggest problem we've had has been keeping track of the various quests we're on. Every time we go back to the Seven Pillared Hall, someone seems to have another little job for us to do.
And slightly more threadjacking...
I'm about to run the last section of Thunderspire Labyrinth for my group and we had a good time. The only rough spot was lots of duergar. I had to change up most of the encounters with them as soon as I realized the party wizard (an illusionist) was effectively useless. They have immunity to illusions and resist 10 fire, basically negating his other at-will. Seriously, I thought that wasn't supposed to happen in 4e. So, I mixed up the encounters, and things went better. And the end fight with Murkelmoor was pretty great thanks to a trap I added that didn't discriminate between pc and npc.
I don't know if it was bad adventure design, but duergar (and for some reason hobgoblins) increase the grind, so avoid multiple encounters with just them.
I am the DM for Rosie's group. I am wavering between having a blast and gritting my teeth with Thunderspire. The Horned Hold was the most fun for me, as it turned into a running battle through the whole three towers. I halved or 3/4 hp on a lot of the foes, which made the whole thing much more dynamic.
On the other hand, the Well of Demons is fun, but the sheer amount of the same type of demons (barlgura, I'm looking at you!) tends to take the edge off. Although the PCs were freaked out by all the weird traps.
I'm playing in an SoW adventure and our DM has stated thusly:
Part 1 - Great
Part 2 - Great
Part 3 - Great
Part 4 - Wait, what? The hell is this disjointed sack of encounters? You had an awesome hook and sweet end boss but nothing connecting them! Frak this, I'll re-do the encounters (which he did and it was awesome).
Part 5 - Not bad. Wait... This ties back to him... and that... and all that? Sweet!
Part 6+ - Holy crap, they're reading my mind! This is playing right into what I had planned!
Long of the short of it: Do not just run the Scales of War straight out of the Dungeons. Read them over, do your own modifications as needed, and roll that way. We're level 7 and just about everyone is having a blast. Trust me, stick with it.
They just put up a new adventure today, the one that takes the PCs to epic level. It looks pretty awesome! I'm not sure exactly how it will play, but I really like the storyline.
I'm finishing up Rescue at Rivenroar with a group I've been DM'ing for all summer and I have to say I'm a bit disappointed.
This adventure is not ready to play "out of the box" as it were. There are numerous mistakes and inconsistencies that bugged me. The solo monster is beyond lackluster.
On the solo monster:
Also, be careful with your party's composition. My party was composed of only one melee character while all the rest were ranged. The default strategy for the entire dungeon was to sit in a hallway with the one melee defender and the ranger's beast companion up front while everyone unloaded from behind. Keeping the defender alive was easy and the enemies missed consistently enough that it wasn't necessary half the time. It was very boring as a DM since none of the hallways have any interesting terrain or features and none of the monsters chosen for the mod are good at maneuvering around defenders. I had to take great liberties.
My advice to anyone DM'ing Rescue at Rivenroar is to basically scrap all the encounters and rebuild them yourself. They're boring and usually don't make much sense.
So I'm a player in this campaign (so no real spoilers) and we just finished the first adventure and are a little way into the second adventure.
Rescue at Rivenroar was a major pushover and I'm wondering if the problem might be our characters are too well designed or if thats more of an aberration and the first adventure was designed to be an easy introduction to 4E aimed at less experienced RPGers.
So I'm a player in this campaign (so no real spoilers) and we just finished the first adventure and are a little way into the second adventure.
Rescue at Rivenroar was a major pushover and I'm wondering if the problem might be our characters are too well designed or if thats more of an aberration and the first adventure was designed to be an easy introduction to 4E aimed at less experienced RPGers.
A group of decently designed ranged attackers can break this adventure, no problem. The only parts my group had trouble with were the ettercaps (which shouldn't have been there) and the beginning hobgoblins (because of high defenses). Other than that, *yawn*. As soon as I got Sinruth anywhere near the rest of the party he was blown back, knocked prone, and nearly put to sleep. I felt like I was letting the players down after all of the hype throughout the adventure. Every good dungeon should end with a good villain. Sinruth wasn't that. He was an elite monster with extra hit points, not a solo.
The only time things got difficult were when I built my own encounters and when the players forgot to gag a prisoner who warned the next room of monsters before they could take a short rest.
I guess maybe I'm just ranting after all the time I put into this campaign. I apologize if it comes off that way but I'd like other DM's to learn from my tribulations.