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I'm not going to go into the whole story on this one, suffice to say that it was fun, challenging and made more sense that The Third Riddle. What I do want to get into is the interparty conflict the Andoran faction mission caused. Now at the time I played (last night) I hadn't read the mission, but at least one of the two Andoran players at the table is an experienced gamer and she believed she was going to lose her faction mission. After reading the success requirements it didn't seem as hopeless as I had thought, but the interparty conflict was still notable.
The Andoran faction mission was
In Act Four the party encounters an ogre who is identified as a slave in the service to drow soldiers. Our party included 3 Osirions, 2 Andorans and 1 Chelaxian. The Chelaxian was a rebuking cleric who had animated the chimera from the previous encounter as a skeleton. The Chelaxian player also felt that his faction was inclined to use slaves and slavery. When the ogre was identified as a slave (it doesn't speak Undercommon so the soldiers ordered it to attack they did it in Common) the Chelaxian PC said in character something like "You will serve me after I kill your masters". He did not know what the Andoran mission was. When the Andorans told him the ogre should be free, he felt that it was just your typical role-play between factions.
The fight against the drow soldiers was short but brutal. Their rapiers and sneak attack were not much good against a chimera skeleton, but they did carve the Andoran druid up good. The other Andoran tried to talk the ogre into surrendering but with a 7 charisma he really didn't have a chance. The ogre still was threatening the party when the Cheliax faction PC's skeleton dropped the last drow soldier and he moved it over to the ogre.
Here's where the trouble started. The Chelaxian's intentions were unclear, but the Andorans wanted no harm to come to the ogre. So the Andoran said don't attack the ogre, we are going to free it. The Chelaxian said he's mine, slavery is part of my portfolio. He wasn't lying, he follows Zursvaater (LE, conquest, slavery, weapons). The Andoran announced he would take an AO on the skeleton when it passed by him to threaten the ogre. The Chelaxian player said an attack on his property is the same as an attack on his PC, and the Andoran would "lose his character" if he followed through. The Andorans said their faction mission was to free the ogre from slavery (they were mistaken but the GM never corrected them), and if the ogre was slain or enslaved they would lose their PA point. The Chelaxian said he would give them a deal, they could buy the ogre from him then free it if they wanted. The Andorans said that was blackmail and refused. They wanted to defend the ogre from the other party member.
I was not the GM, but the players look to me as their organizer. I spoke up and said there were two ways to resolve the problem. Either everyone agreed that we were all adults and capable of some PC-vs-PC conflict without anyone getting their feelings hurt OR the GM needs to simply suspend reality and state the Chelaxian player cannot take an action that would cause other players to lose their faction point. The Andorans said they had a problem with the Chelaxian player's objective and I said then it doesn't happen. We agreed and I said we would move on and speak no more of it. Save for the GM...
The GM had been quiet at this point, but now he was annoyed with the Chelaxian player quoting rules, telling players they would lose their characters, etc. The GM pulls out the Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play and reads aloud Chapter Five. The argument is revived and it comes into question who is bullying who. It wasn't much fun for anyone, but eventually we put it behind us and were able to move on. Maybe it was just two people who were spoiling for an argument, but after they got it out of their system we were able to finish without further drama.
I want to point out that a diplomacy check made in combat is done at a -10 penalty. The DC is listed as 30 to convince the ogre to stop fighting. That means the player(s) needs to roll a 40 Diplomacy (I can do math!). I'm just pointing that out...
I think the point of my story (which I wasn't aware of when I started writing this) is that there is an inherent flaw when you set up a system where players are part of diametrically opposed factions yet they cannot act to oppose the other save for "a little fun banter". Many players also believe that Pathfinder Society is a heroic campaign setting. I believe it has been stated that it is actually a morally gray campaign, but some players seem to have difficulty getting 'hero' out of their mind.
The Chelaxian player was a guest at the table and was being very stubborn about playing his character. I assume he will not be invited back if he wants to play that PC at this table in the future. What is funny is this guy was sitting in for another Chelaxian who actually has ranks in Profession (Slaver).
I don't know what the answer is. I like the game the way it is with the flexible rules that allow the GM to use their own judgment. I don't want to give the rules lawyers any ground to restrict the game any further, but there are clearly two types of players in this game. The type that prefer heroism, fun for everyone and dislike interparty conflict and the type that appreciate the gray areas and don't mind losing rewards in the name of good role-playing. The trick is to keep those players separated.
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I thought that this scenario was a lot of fun, but during the two times that I ran it at Paizocon only two characters (total) completed their faction missions. I think the missions in this game were difficult on purpose--perhaps to keep players from thinking that all they need to do to complete their faction mission is show up and have a pulse.
It was quite unfortunate that you had an immature player at the table. Perhaps the Pathmaster could have reminded everyone that the point of the game is to have a good time and asked the Cheliax player to help out? Maybe the PM did that already--I really don't know the entire situation 'cause I wasn't there. All I know is that sometimes the PM really has to put his/her foot down.
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I thought that this scenario was a lot of fun, but during the two times that I ran it at Paizocon only two characters (total) completed their faction missions. I think the missions in this game were difficult on purpose--perhaps to keep players from thinking that all they need to do to complete their faction mission is show up and have a pulse.
It was quite unfortunate that you had an immature player at the table. Perhaps the Pathmaster could have reminded everyone that the point of the game is to have a good time and asked the Cheliax player to help out? Maybe the PM did that already--I really don't know the entire situation 'cause I wasn't there. All I know is that sometimes the PM really has to put his/her foot down.
I wouldn't categorize any of my players as immature. I'd say 'stubborn' is a better descriptor. I'm curious if anyone had a similar problem when they played it. It goes against most PC's nature to spare an evil monster that is dealing out the hurt.
Andoran Faction: PCs from the Andoran faction who
attempt to free the ogre slave in act 4 (regardless of
success) earn 1 Prestige Award.
I also want to share some silliness from the Osirion mission. How does one "detroy" an object? [typo in faction mission] We took 20 on our search checks to try and find some 'troy' to remove from the obelisks but we could find none. We ended up declaring we would beat the troy out of the obelisks, but we found no troy after demolishing them. We returned to Absalom and reported our failure but the GM gave us the faction point anyways. Very confusing.
Another point I meant to raise is the lack of a favor on the Chronicle sheet dealing with
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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Hey, all! Just wanted to pop in and thank everyone both for their kind words and for their feedback - I'm a fan of this adventure myself (having been given the opportunity to play through it on two separate occasions at PaizoCon!), and I also hope to be able to answer questions & respond to concerns.
As to your most recent question, Doug Doug, specifically regarding the Chronicle Sheet and the omitted spoiler, the intention from the beginning was that the PCs simply can't get the prize. Having access to something like that would be game-breaking, at least in a shared world like the Society.
Of course, allowing access to an artifact-level secret like that in a HOME game would be up to the individual GM!
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Just played this scenario tonight at Origins. Rolling lowest for initiative, my Andoran cleric reluctantly watched mutely as first a Chelaxian druid lightning stuck, then the partnered Chelaxian barbarian charged and slaughtered the ogre slave before I could even speak up to call out for it to be free. No prestige point for the cause of equality and responsible governance in Absalom tonight.
The barbarian's player said he would have spared the ogre had I spoken up, and I believe him, and the GM said I could have earned the prestige point for even trying to bring it up, but in honesty, how many groups would take that risk for an ogre, though in my case, the nature of the death realistically ruled out even bringing the subject up. This is the first time in 21 sessions I felt the deck stacked against me, by the nature of the set up itself, not the machinations of other factions.
I had fun with the session, don't misunderstand, but the setup lends itself to an undesirable aftertaste.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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I again want to thank everyone for their feedback! I'm glad that people have enjoyed this adventure, and I wanted to respond to comments about the difficulty of the Faction missions.
I thought that this scenario was a lot of fun, but during the two times that I ran it at Paizocon only two characters (total) completed their faction missions. I think the missions in this game were difficult on purpose...
This is 100% correct, but I certainly hope that no one was too frustrated by the increase in difficulty, which was not intended to be TOO sudden. A lot of effort (by writers, but even more by the esteemed Mr. Josh Frost) is put into balancing the difficulties of the Faction Missions for the Scenarios, and while I thought this one was balanced (in that they were all pretty hard), I'll take any blame for error.
By the way, [bDarian Graey[/b], I'm sorry that your GM rubbed your magical loss in your face. The power hidden behind the door is really meant to be lost, no matter what, but your instincts were good. Oh, those stupid paladins!
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Clinton, the last slot of Origins I ran this and we had a mixed-level table. They had enough level 8 PCs that I decided they could make a go of the high tier (8-9). I had run the scenario earlier in the con with some level 7 PCs in a mixed-level party and they played down to the low tier (5-6), subsequently not having much of a challenge. I didn't believe anyone who came to Origins was going to play at the high tier and never prepped for it. The second time around I scanned all but the last encounter and decided they could handle the high tier. I gave them the choice and they were OK (with my assurance) with playing at tier 8-9.
They had a good time and I felt that we had made the right choice. The hellwasp swarm had actually given them the most trouble since they really weren't outfitted to deal with it. It's a great encounter to play up the creepiness of their opponents. The other fights they handled alright. The drow were waaay too easy. I'd be happier if there were fewer of them, but advanced more. I dropped some of the lower-level PCs but overall the level 8s were carrying the party. Until the last Act.
It's 5PM on Sunday and everyone's looking forward to the final obstacle. I looked at the high tier opponents for the first time and blinked.
Claw of Abraxas (2) CR 6
hp 115 (MM 48—use the stats for vrock)
TACTICS
During Combat The Claws of Abraxas wade into melee combat
immediately, giving Urxhit time to cast spells.
Morale The claws of Abraxas fight to the death.
Now, if I were a better GM and had done my prep work like I should have, I may have thought this encounter through and had a better idea how to arrange it. At the time, 5PM on a Sunday after running ten slots of Pathfinder Society, I said "No way". Vrocks are CR 9 creatures. The scenario says EL9, but I saw an EL 11+ encounter. Now, upon reflection you probably didn't mean that the Claws were actual vrocks, just that they had the HP & attacks of vrocks but lacked the special abilities/defenses. But that was not clear in the scenario. They melee with full vrock stats, and even if they don't use their stunning screech the spores are still a free action. I guess I'd just like to know how to adjust their stats to make them CR 6 monsters when they don't appear to have been altered from CR 9.
Anyway, I balked at running the encounter as written. I added another drider and beefed up their AC and HD on the fly. I'm not proud of changing the last encounter but I wasn't willing to run it as it appeared to be written. I'm not certain the party couldn't have defeated the original opponents, but one player had a plane to catch and...I can keep adding excuses but it is what it is. I'd appreciate any clarification from the author or from Josh.
Doug, when I get back in the office on Monday, I'll go over that encounter again and see if we missed something in development.
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Doug, when I get back in the office on Monday, I'll go over that encounter again and see if we missed something in development.
Josh, any update on this? I know you are busy with GenCon projects so don't feel bad about getting back to me later if you're focused on editing v2.0
If I missed something obvious just let me know. I may be running this at the high tier again before GenCon. I'd like to do it right the next time around.
It's clearly a typo. It's an EL 9 encounter because the PCs are supposed to fight a single CR 9 vrock. I'll update the PDF.
Thanks for pointing this out to me again!
After additional review, it's an EL 10 encounter with the vrock plus Urxhit (9+7 = EL 10). We'll have an updated PDF up today.
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Just played this scenario tonight at Origins. Rolling lowest for initiative, my Andoran cleric reluctantly watched mutely as first a Chelaxian druid lightning stuck, then the partnered Chelaxian barbarian charged and slaughtered the ogre slave before I could even speak up to call out for it to be free. No prestige point for the cause of equality and responsible governance in Absalom tonight.
Right... So, knowing in advance there's going to be an encounter involving slaves, most likely monsters, which should be freed, why did you wait until actually encountering said ogre before attempting to speak about your faction mission with your Pathfinder allies?
I just got through playing this scenario. Our group consisted of three Chelaxians and a Taldoran (Doug, I like your review, by the way. ;)). A pretty straightforward module with lots of combat. Extremely Role-Playing light. Most of the encounters were very easy for our specialist posse (two summoners, a save or suck -sorcerer and an archer).
My sorcerer actually accomplished the Andoran mission by mistake. I had Glitterdusted the ogre and called out "Ogre, turn on your captors and join us, and I'll cure your blindness!" I rolled high enough, and so the ogre joined us in squashing the poor drider to a pulp. Great fun. We brough him back to Absalom with us and made him an honorary Pathfinder.
A definite improvement on the Third Riddle, Clinton.
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Right... So, knowing in advance there's going to be an encounter involving slaves, most likely monsters, which should be freed, why did you wait until actually encountering said ogre before attempting to speak about your faction mission with your Pathfinder allies?
First off, the only slave was dead before I had a chance to react, due to a poor initiative roll and no action in the suprise round. Them's the luck of the dice, so times good, others really bad. A single ogre against a group of 7th level PC's doesn't have much of a chance. My fuss isn't over that. It happens.
On the issue of slavery, we did have some discussion of slavery at the table, amongst we Andorans and the Chelaxian pathfinders. Naturally, we did not necessarily argee on the subject. And I played at different tables at Origins, some shared their faction missions, most did not. From my experience, people are taking their faction play kinda important to their characters, which I think bodes well for a living campaign, whatever game it is used with.
My problem was not that the slave issue revolved around one encounter only, its a faction mission so its supposed to be an issue to solve not an item on a grocery list. My issue was that the slave was a monster, not a human, demihuman, or average humanoid as all others I've encountered have been to date. Awarding a faction point for arguing the slavery issue would have been more appropriate for a discussion about slavery than just shouting to a slave ogre "join us and be free" which is too much like "join us or die," which is probably how he ended up serving the drow. It doesn't do much to the issue at large in the bigger scheme of things, and sounded kinda hollow a sentiment as well.
BTW, on the issue of the DM, he made a point of issuing the order for the "slave" to attack, with a response of "yes, my master" to show the two Andoran's at the table a slave was present. Also, I did not mean to infer he rubbed our noses in what we missed out on in the silent room, just that I kinda wished I hadn't known what had been so close to gaining. We had a great DM, and I'd be honored to sit at one of his tables again in the future.
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Most of the encounters were very easy for our specialist posse (two summoners, a save or suck -sorcerer and an archer).
Easy? I would've called it a massacre. ;)
This combat-heavy scenario just demonstrated, yet again, one of the challenges in writing a scenario for organized play: how do you challenge an optimized party while at the same time not making the scenario a meatgrinder for most casual groups? For this particular party the scenario felt like a pushover. I think they had more trouble with the swarms in the first encounter than with any of the other creatures.
But with all that said, an enjoyable scenario and for a more traditional party the combats might've been more challenging and tactical.
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Planning to run this on Sunday, and I'm pondering the paladin of slaughter. Given the new lay on hands, would a "death touch" (1d6/two levels, save DC 10 + half paladin level + Cha mod) make the most sense, with an option to spend two uses for a channel negative energy burst? Should I consider adding some negative status effects (the opposite of mercies) to the touch as well? Any other ideas or suggestions?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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Planning to run this on Sunday, and I'm pondering the paladin of slaughter. Given the new lay on hands, would a "death touch" (1d6/two levels, save DC 10 + half paladin level + Cha mod) make the most sense, with an option to spend two uses for a channel negative energy burst? Should I consider adding some negative status effects (the opposite of mercies) to the touch as well? Any other ideas or suggestions?
Dude, good questions! Here's the real question: is this an OFFICIALLY-OFFICIAL kind of "For the Society!" game that you're going to be running, or is this a fun-with-friends kind of deal?
If it's for the Society: don't change nothing! The adventure is designed to run using pre-PFRPG rules, and the official rules on alternate Paladins have not yet been released and might never be.
Now, if it's for FUN: hells yes, death touch should inflict "anti-mercies!" That's awesome!
In fact, in one early draft of the the adventure, the Paladin of Slaughter actually had a unique feat, available ONLY to drow servants of Abraxus, to use their full Paladin level as their caster level & to gain one sorcerer/wizard spell of their choice as a divine paladin spell of the same level; the spell also gained the [Chaotic] & [Evil] descriptors when cast by them.
Heck, there was originally a much higher-level Paladin of Slaughter for the higher-tier of the adventure, who fought with sword, shield and scorching ray. This, of course, just ate up GOBS of word-count, and the saner head of the multi-talented & good-looking Josh Frost prevented me from doing anything too crazy for the adventure.
My advice is to make the Paladin of Slaughter a particularly tough foe; as other players have noted, depending on the party, the toughest single fight CAN be the swarms in Encounter 1.
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I ran this adventure last week for our PFS group here in NYC at the higher tier (8-9). I updated the encounters to the Pathfinder RPG to give my players a bit more of a challenge and failed completely; they walked over everything I threw at them. That's what you get with four casters in the group.
For those of you who are interested, here are my conversions. I only list the stats that differ from the ones found in the 3.5 MM. Once the Bestiary comes out the base creatures can hopefully all be upgraded to those stats.
ACT I
Hellwasp Swarm
HP: 102 (12d10+36)
Poison: DC 18, 1/rd for 6 rds, Dam 1d2 Dex
Feat: Added Improved Iron Will
Skills: Perception +12, Stealth +15, Sense Motive +3
Hellwasp Swarm Minotaur Host (Minotaur Zombie)
HP: 44 (8d8+8)
Fort: +2, Ref +2, Will +6
CMB +12, CMD 21
ACT II
Drow Warriors
HP: 10 (1d10)
Poison DC 13, freq 1 min/2 min, Effect: Unc for 1 min
Black Knight of Abraxas
I gave these evil paladin-types the Divine Bond ability (Keen) and the new and improved Smite. All stats incorporate both the scroll of Protection from Good and the extra Paladin spell Divine Favor.
Favored Class: Paladin of Slaughter
hp: 42 (5d10+10) (10 + 5.5x4 + 5Con + 5FavCl)
AC 22/11/21, (24/13/23 vs good w/Prot from Good spell), (25/14/24 vs good aligned target of smith)
Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +8 (+10 vs. spells)
Attack +1 longsword +10 (1d8+4/17-20), Power attack +8 (1d8+8/17-20)
Spells: Add Divind Favor
CMB +7, CMD 18 (20 vs. good, 21 vs good target of smite)
Feat: Add Cleave
Skills: Intimidate +11, Spellcraft +8
ACT III
Chimera
Feat: Add Ability Focus (Breath Weapon)
CMB +14, CMD 25
More to follow ...
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I updated the encounters to the Pathfinder RPG to give my players a bit more of a challenge and failed completely; they walked over everything I threw at them.
It was still cool to listen to your soothing voice. Very relaxing.
Black Knight of Abraxas
Favored Class: Paladin of Slaughter
They did live up to thier name ! We slaughtered the whole lot of them. Wheeeeee !
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This was brought up some time ago on the rules board (I think?), but what happens if the two locust swarms in Act1 overlap? Do they continue to function as independent "creatures" or would they merge into a super swarm?
The two swarms become a "larger" swarm.
Bestiary 313:
Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
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This is one of the few scenarios I've encountered where both the high tier AND the low tier equally challenge the characters that are played in it.
Despite playing 'low tier' it felt as challenging as the 'high tier' table appeared to be.
Clever tactics and thoughtful play were rewarded over brute force, which isn't always the case in more 'modern' scenarios.
In addition, it was refreshing to see a nod to the former Andoran/Liberty's Edge mission and despite faction missions being retired, performing that action having a significant impact on scenario resolution.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Northwestern Indiana
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My group played this some years ago. We had at least two Andoran characters, including my wizard who speaks Undercommon.
One of the players was truly angry at the player, whose characters were generally ineffective and annoying. There was a brief side discussion with the GM as one player had enough and was considering sacrificing his character by violating the PvP rule to make a point to someone who did not cooperate well. Fortunately, the troll was able to go in freedom back to the Darklands. If we did not have any interference, our cleric of Gorum was quite willing to convert the troll.
