They've said they want to do it.
There's also some outcry for a high level AP or at least a deluxe module for veterans from the other complete APs.
Be patient. It will eventually happen.
Actually it does make alot of sense to have them six adventures long, thats not likely to change for a vast collage of reasons. Root around on the boards, this has come up before.
And it really doesn't sell as well, not even with Dungeon and Dragon, its not a hackneyed excuse, its business sense, why cut of the arm for the sake of a finger?
I wouldn't mind seeing some of their amazing quality in high levels, but frankly I like the sweet spot best, as do at least a large chunk of their customers.
So yes its on the menu somewhere I'm sure, but it will never be a regular thing. Their most likely to release high-level modules, you can increase the regularity of these, and the introduction of a high-level adventure path by buying them. Let your money do half the talking, and it becomes gauranteed that high-level stuff gets introduced.
I'd like to see a Pathfinder Module that would be designed to be a possible follow-up to one of the existing (or future) adventure paths as well as a stand-alone.
I would think it would have more sales appeal than a high-level module out of the blue since it would tie in with Paizo's flagship product: the adventure paths.
I'm sure if I asked my players whether they'd like to whip out their high-level PCs from Rise of the Runelords and go through another adventure, I'd get a resounding yes.
Just a thought.
I know ill buy it
The 15th level adventure was one of the few from the modules that i have purchased
Creative Director
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This is certainly an idea we've bumped around... but a high level adventure sequel like that would take a fair amount of work, and would probably be larger than a normal volume of Pathfinder. We've got enough going on with launching the RPG this year, but beyond that into next year... a high-level adventure's certainly possible.
... but a high level adventure sequel like that would take a fair amount of work, and would probably be larger than a normal volume of Pathfinder.
There it is......the other excuse. The economic reasons aside, this is the excuse that I hear the most and, quite frankly, it's the one that frustrates me the most. Yes, high-level adventures are a lot of work. But, with all due respect James (and that's quite a bit), RPG publishers get paid for precisely that....their hard work. You see, as great as Paizo's products are, ultimately, I don't NEED most of it. The low to mid-level stuff I can do on my own with minimal time and energy. As a DM, it's the high-level stuff that I need the most published material for as I simply don't care to put that much work into it. See, I can get away with that, I'm not getting paid. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. 'Nuff said.
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Creative Director
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The elephant in the room, of course, is finding someone who can write a decent high level adventure that isn't a mid or low level adventure that's pretending to be a high level adventure. Authors who can do that are very very rare, and since they tend to be the better authors, they also tend to be very, very busy, and taking them out of commission for months at a time to do one big project when they could be doing multiple smaller projects is not always the best choice.
As for RPG publishers/designers getting paid... don't try to put too much weight on that argument. This industry isn't set up to make designers and writers rich, and those who do the job just for the money don't do the job for long.
The simple truth comes down to demand. If high level products were easier and more popular to do than they are, you'd see more of them. They're not, so you don't. For the fan of high-level content, that sucks. As a fan of high-level play myself, I'm frustrated as well, but it is what it is.
Some day. Just not soon.
For the fan of high-level content, that sucks.
Yes, yes it does.
Regardless, Paizo rocks.
No really.......they do. They just don't, like, BIG rock. It's more like they little to medium rock.....A LOT!!
That's cool too.
The simple truth comes down to demand. If high level products were easier and more popular to do than they are, you'd see more of them. They're not, so you don't. For the fan of high-level content, that sucks. As a fan of high-level play myself, I'm frustrated as well, but it is what it is.
So, someone who can pull of a actual "high level" adventure would have a "leg up" in the next RPG Superstar. :D
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Particleman, I think you totally missed the meat of what James was saying, and that is:
We've got enough going on with launching the RPG this year, but beyond that into next year... a high-level adventure's certainly possible.
The launch of the PFRPG is a BIG job, and on top of keeping the Pathfinder APs running. I'm sure that somewhere around August 17th There will be a big Paizo sit down and the topic will be something along the lines of 'what are we missing'? I'm sure that high level material and (I hope) psionics will be hot topics in that discussion.
I do like the idea of AP 'sequals' or follow-ups.
Anybody planning to write the Epic Pathfinder rules?
I'm sure Jason's got plenty of time these days... :)
(ducks)
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Creative Director
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Anybody planning to write the Epic Pathfinder rules?
I'm sure Jason's got plenty of time these days... :)
(ducks)
That's kind of the holdup, honestly... we can't do 20th+ level content until we decide if we want to just use the epic rules as-is (not my favorite choice) or rebuild them for PFRPG (the better choice) with a built-in band of levels with a cap the same way there's a cap at level 20 for standard play.
And building epic level stuff is probably going to take a long time as is. And we'll be busy getting the base game up and running for a while even before that.
So, while high level content around 15th to 20th is a likely possibility within a year... epic level content is not likely aside from the odd epic-level monster showing up in a Pathfinder AP bestiary now and then.
So, while high level content around 15th to 20th is a likely possibility within a year... epic level content is not likely aside from the odd epic-level monster showing up in a Pathfinder AP bestiary now and then.
Good; even if you ignore the fact that the math doesn't hold up, epic has always been the "amp that goes to 11" anyway. What could (or should) be more "epic" than a Wish?
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Creative Director
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Good; even if you ignore the fact that the math doesn't hold up, epic has always been the "amp that goes to 11" anyway. What could (or should) be more "epic" than a Wish?
So, while high level content around 15th to 20th is a likely possibility within a year... epic level content is not likely aside from the odd epic-level monster showing up in a Pathfinder AP bestiary now and then.
The problem with epic isn't that it goes up to 11, it's that it doesn't STOP at 11.
I am personally of the opinion that the focus is where it should be. I love the campaign setting. Keep the tried-and-true authors producing Pathfinder Chronicles and all of the great campaign fluff with some crunchy bits thrown in once and a while. While I currently am devoted to running APs because of work and family commitments limiting my time (and having a creative job that drains a great deal of my creative focus), I still would rather focus on the low to mid-levels because they provide me with the most interesting story ideas and my players with the greatest challenges. And, as a GM, I enjoy having a challenging combat that ultimately gives my players a sense of accomplishment. Aaron Allison once wrote about what he called the "Diehard Factor". Beat your PCs to within an inch of their lives and have them come out bloody and wobbling. In the end, they feel like they have accomplished something. You cannot do this all of the time, because it looses impact, but all of the greatest combat moments for the truly important fights should push your PC to the edge without them every seeing if there was a safety net.
The problem with epic isn't that it goes up to 11, it's that it doesn't STOP at 11.Good; even if you ignore the fact that the math doesn't hold up, epic has always been the "amp that goes to 11" anyway. What could (or should) be more "epic" than a Wish?
So, while high level content around 15th to 20th is a likely possibility within a year... epic level content is not likely aside from the odd epic-level monster showing up in a Pathfinder AP bestiary now and then.
I get why that would be a problem, but I'm left asking "Why go past 10 at all?" Aren't 9th level spells and 20th level characters "epic"? And if you're going to have a top end, why not put it at level 20, where the math still works?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Anybody planning to write the Epic Pathfinder rules?
I'm sure Jason's got plenty of time these days... :)
(ducks)
That's kind of the holdup, honestly... we can't do 20th+ level content until we decide if we want to just use the epic rules as-is (not my favorite choice) or rebuild them for PFRPG (the better choice) with a built-in band of levels with a cap the same way there's a cap at level 20 for standard play.
And building epic level stuff is probably going to take a long time as is. And we'll be busy getting the base game up and running for a while even before that.
Oohh. 21-30 epic, 31-40 immortality 41 you're a god? :-)
Oohh. 21-30 epic, 31-40 immortality 41 you're a god? :-)Anybody planning to write the Epic Pathfinder rules?
I'm sure Jason's got plenty of time these days... :)
(ducks)
That's kind of the holdup, honestly... we can't do 20th+ level content until we decide if we want to just use the epic rules as-is (not my favorite choice) or rebuild them for PFRPG (the better choice) with a built-in band of levels with a cap the same way there's a cap at level 20 for standard play.
And building epic level stuff is probably going to take a long time as is. And we'll be busy getting the base game up and running for a while even before that.
Only if you remember to say "yes" :)
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While I am in no way disappointed with Pathfinder's current product lines, if there was a module that was basically an epic-level adventure in the Worldwound (something like a sequel to the fab module The Demon Within), I would be forced to give you my money for said product. :D
Also, I do hope we see Pathfinder Epic products someday, I remember Erik Mona talking about books for specific level bands, which is an idea I LOVE, and could be extended to the Epic Level range, while at the same time imposing hard level caps.
By setting up deities as something that exist beyond stat blocks, the first steps to putting a cap on epic-level advancement is already there. So PCs would only need to be lvl 30-35 or so to face the toughest demon lords and stuff, I'd guess.
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Creative Director
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I get why that would be a problem, but I'm left asking "Why go past 10 at all?" Aren't 9th level spells and 20th level characters "epic"? And if you're going to have a top end, why not put it at level 20, where the math still works?
You've got to have some range of levels to establish a spread. Whatever range you choose is arbitrary; you can certainly set 10 at the top end, but the game's set the "top end" at 20th since 2nd edition. So tradition is on its side. Also, its called the d20 system, and thus it feels natural and "right" to end at 20.
One of the thing that the game robs is words. You can't call anyone a fighter. You can't call any spellcaster a wizard. You can't call any deformed humanoid a goblin. Those words have specific meanings in the game, and have lost their ability to be used as descriptive words in the game as a result. Same with the word "epic."
Like it or not, the word "Epic" means 21st and higher level play nowadays.
I get why that would be a problem, but I'm left asking "Why go past 10 at all?" Aren't 9th level spells and 20th level characters "epic"? And if you're going to have a top end, why not put it at level 20, where the math still works?You've got to have some range of levels to establish a spread. Whatever range you choose is arbitrary; you can certainly set 10 at the top end, but the game's set the "top end" at 20th since 2nd edition. So tradition is on its side. Also, its called the d20 system, and thus it feels natural and "right" to end at 20.
One of the thing that the game robs is words. You can't call anyone a fighter. You can't call any spellcaster a wizard. You can't call any deformed humanoid a goblin. Those words have specific meanings in the game, and have lost their ability to be used as descriptive words in the game as a result. Same with the word "epic."
Like it or not, the word "Epic" means 21st and higher level play nowadays.
Then down with Epic, I say! :)
Like it or not, the word "Epic" means 21st and higher level play nowadays.
I have to speak up.
Overuse of the word Epic in 3e was actually something that ruined those books for me. The designers seemed to think they were creating something new by pinning that word on it and doubling the number. That's an outrage.
If Paizo ever does an Epic-level book, my fervent wish is that the word "epic" should only appear a handful of times.
Bonus points for a sidebar explaining what "epic" actually means. And it doesn't mean "fantastic".
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Creative Director
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Like it or not, the word "Epic" means 21st and higher level play nowadays.I have to speak up.
Overuse of the word Epic in 3e was actually something that ruined those books for me. The designers seemed to think they were creating something new by pinning that word on it and doubling the number. That's an outrage.
If Paizo ever does an Epic-level book, my fervent wish is that the word "epic" should only appear a handful of times.
Bonus points for a sidebar explaining what "epic" actually means. And it doesn't mean "fantastic".
Wise words. Epic's loss as a word we can use as the dictionary WANTS it to be used is frustrating, and finding a new way to brand 21st+ level adventuring is something I'd very much like to do. Unfortunately, it's also a really handy word to describe that type of play, and it DOES have a brand to it now as a result, so changing it might not be the best choice...
Extended Level Play?
Pathfinder Beyond Level Play?
D20: Beyond 20! A guide to campaigns above level 20
20+ 20+ 20+ 20+!
All 20+ all the time?
I don't know... I got nothing.
what about legendary? or mythic? something along that line epic this and epic that is played out
I could see epic being used in the blup but something I dig about Pathfinder: Legendary rules set or some such
That's what I was going to say next! Legendary! Or... um... Mythic! Yeah!
One of the thing that the game robs is words. You can't call anyone a fighter. You can't call any spellcaster a wizard. You can't call any deformed humanoid a goblin. Those words have specific meanings in the game, and have lost their ability to be used as descriptive words in the game as a result. Same with the word "epic."Like it or not, the word "Epic" means 21st and higher level play nowadays.
You know James, one of the things about 3E that I was never too fond of was this notion that flavor text had to be limited by the specific in-game notions of what all these words mean. It seemed that as the edition wore on, the more words had to be taken out of mundane usage because they were suddenly attached to some mechanic.
Since Paizo is recreating the game and moving forward without WotC, I have a novel suggestion: drop the slavish devotion to terminology and let writers/game designers get back to writing. Don't get me wrong, Paizo is already doing a good job of this, so this isn't a criticism, but I do think that if you decide to drop the traditional epic level mechanics, the word "epic" should be reclaimed as a descriptive word that means: heroic; majestic; impressively great: the epic events of the war.
My vote for the new level 21+ rules is to scrap "epic" and do the video game trick where you're more powerful than a conventional character but you're pretty much back at square one again in terms of power progression. With spells like wish to contend with, I can see how designing this will be a challenge.
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Creative Director
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what about legendary? or mythic? something along that line epic this and epic that is played out
I could see epic being used in the blup but something I dig about Pathfinder: Legendary rules set or some such
Thing is that those words are no better than "epic" to denote this type of play; they're just as arbitrary. Worse, since they're not already associated with post 21st level play.
So yeah; the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that epic is pretty much stuck as is.
what about legendary? or mythic? something along that line epic this and epic that is played out
I could see epic being used in the blup but something I dig about Pathfinder: Legendary rules set or some such
Thing is that those words are no better than "epic" to denote this type of play; they're just as arbitrary. Worse, since they're not already associated with post 21st level play.
So yeah; the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that epic is pretty much stuck as is.
~smirks~ That is epically sad! ~RUNS~
~ Epically smirks~ That is epically sad! ~ EPICally RUNS~
there I epically fixed that for ya
there I epically fixed that for ya
~ Epically smirks~ That is epically sad! ~ EPICally RUNS~
Well, what can I say? It was an Epic joke!
One of the thing that the game robs is words. You can't call anyone a fighter. You can't call any spellcaster a wizard. You can't call any deformed humanoid a goblin. Those words have specific meanings in the game, and have lost their ability to be used as descriptive words in the game as a result. Same with the word "epic."
An interesting problem. I agree that "epic" is stuck, but at least it works well as a game term.
I'm not clamoring for high-level or epic-level adventures. Waiting a year or more is no problem for me, but I will be interested in seeing both when they are released.
I wonder if epic level play could be balanced by adding constraints or vulnerabilities to offset epic level powers, kind of like how a genie in Disney's Aladdin gets cosmic power but also an itty bitty living space. Less crippling, more playable trade-offs, possibly in the form of greater responsibility or increased attention from the gods, might offer some fun possibilities.
Then again, players of epic level characters may be looking forward to the fun of greater freedom to do whatever they want. I'm curious to know what people like about epic level play.
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They've said they want to do it.
There's also some outcry for a high level AP or at least a deluxe module for veterans from the other complete APs.
Be patient. It will eventually happen.
Some time ago, there was some talk about super-extra rich 128 pages long mega-modules.
Such a format for a high level adventure would be really great.
They've said they want to do it.
There's also some outcry for a high level AP or at least a deluxe module for veterans from the other complete APs.
Be patient. It will eventually happen.
Some time ago, there was some talk about super-extra rich 128 pages long mega-modules.
Such a format for a high level adventure would be really great.
Actually that would be great for any level. Something hardcover with lots of maps, like Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, would be awesome. Why is extra page length especially good for epic level adventures? Seems like the content is different, but it could fit in the same number of pages as a low level adventure.
Epic Bards, presumably...
<chuckle> Maybe "epic" has another technical meaning in the music field. Although there were kewl spells coming out of that guy's palm, and lightning from a guitar, and the storm in the background. Can epic bards really conjure background storms?
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One of things that always frustrated me about very high level play is the massive impact on a campaign world that epic characters would truly have.
It's also very difficult to come up with motivations within the constraints of a standard world that an epic character would struggle to attain. You have to provide players with challenges that a more than just really tough monsters in order to make games memorable.
You almost need to provide an alternate setting for epic, along with rules that go beyond the base mechanics extrapolated. What's happened in games that went epic that I've witnessed, were people trying to do god like things but playing their characters as if they were still adventureres. They don't want to give up on their characters, but they expect to compete with demigods and demon lords. Those creatures are controlling nations and minions, not running about doing things with their buddies. In essence, the entire style of game changes at that level, in order to make sense with what characters have interacted with to date.
One thing that could be done is to change the benchmark when the bestiary comes out. Set some things as higher level to blur that line a little. Make other people in the game world that are also very high level, no 10th level kings say. If you change the benchmrk for what epic means by making the setting itself powerful, its easier to compensate for motivations. If by twenteth level the characters are now as powerful as the rulers of the lands it makes motivations for what playes want, much easier to attain.
Of course this means you need to plan your campaign world with epic level in mind from the start. It also means that races like orcs and hobgoblins would need levelled charaters in order to make sense and compete or be a threat with other nations/npc races. In otherwords, lots of work. I don't see Golarian having that kind of setting. Which means the guys and girls at Paizo will need to create not just mechanics, but possibly an alternate "setting" that provides motivation as well. Not an easy thing to do well.
Cheers
<chuckle> Maybe "epic" has another technical meaning in the music field.
It does. It pretty much means Jimmy Page.
I just thought of a reason for Paizo to publish high-level adventures: capstone abilities.
Genies in the Legacy of Fire AP seem to want epic-level treatment. The Great Beyond—A Guide to the Multiverse should also increase demand.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Another thing to consider for Epic,
What are your characters doing to affect the world?
I mean, a 20th level fighter can carve his own kingdom from the wild lands of Varsaria, but ruling them is a full time job.
An Epic level bard, is he William Shakespear of Taldor? Even a nursery rhyme from him should be picked up and repeated. He should be able to bring a (normal) baron down with six little words.
One thing I liked about BECMI was the paths to immortality. I'd love to see something similiar. But that's -my- definition of epic. Others may vary.
And even the BECMI approach was able to do adventures.
"My old friends! What brings you to my captial? As you can see, my lands are prosperous and soon I will have a child to carry on my line."
"Shadrach-"
"That's Emperor Shadrach, High priestess."
"Emperor Shadrach. Saranae has revealed to me a spawn of Rovaraug has been unleashed, bringing undeath and madness in its wake as it tries to find its master's cage. As Torvold the Mighty would say, "It is time to get the band back together," Or all your victories will be for naught."
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Thing is that those words are no better than "epic" to denote this type of play; they're just as arbitrary. Worse, since they're not already associated with post 21st level play.
You could always add a "k" to the end. I remember Mage: the Ascension did that to differentiate sorceror/vampire/changeling magic from reality-warping/force of will magick.
Or put a tm on the end, but that might come across as cheeky.
what about legendary? or mythic? something along that line epic this and epic that is played out
Advanced Paizo & Pathfinder (AP&P)?
So, while high level content around 15th to 20th is a likely possibility within a year... epic level content is not likely aside from the odd epic-level monster showing up in a Pathfinder AP bestiary now and then.
What about a stand alone transition adventure? Something for the DM who wants an in-game rationale for moving from 20th to 21st and beyond.
The premise being you're stuck at level 20 unless and until you undergo some sort of legendary deed to prove your worthiness of moving up into the epic frontier.
what about legendary? or mythic? something along that line epic this and epic that is played out
I could see epic being used in the blup but something I dig about Pathfinder: Legendary rules set or some such
Thing is that those words are no better than "epic" to denote this type of play; they're just as arbitrary. Worse, since they're not already associated with post 21st level play.
So yeah; the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that epic is pretty much stuck as is.
James, my plea is not to change it as the descriptor for 21+ games (that looks strange in print :) ) but please don't use it in game mechanics.
Epic Levels, ok. Epic this and epic that, please no. I'd love to see the wordcount on the ELH, they might have printed the word "epic" as many times as they printed the word "the".
Also, I believe that the world's most popular fantasy game has an even more venerable tradition for the upper echelons of adventuring power. I should imagine that revisiting that old system would have quite a few supports here. Or better yet, take what works from everything else, and add some more.
I guess I am not understanding what the attraction to "Epic" level play is. The game has set a top level, and this does seem a little forced or unrealistic that a ceiling in advancement should exist. Yes, I understand using the term "realistic" is not the best choice in a discussion about fantasy. The fact remains, the level cap exists as part of the game. If you consider the amount of real world play time that can be consumed, going from level 1 to 20 can take a while. Also, in my experience, I have found some truly epic (lower case) moments can occur at any level of play. When you look around at the NPC's that have been showing up in Golarian, they are of varying levels, but most have not topped out at the extremes that one found in that forgotten place. I say, play PFRPG and enjoy PFRPG for at least a year before the there needs to be Epic (upper case) rules.
I do agree, however, the focus on levels 16 through 20 might be nice in a module or three...