So I'm thinking about playing a Monk/Shadow Dancer as a character soon, I honestly don't think it will be that great at combat but my goal is to kind of sneak around and pretend I'm a Ninja :P One of the big things I'm having trouble with is what race to play (and because of this I can't figure out how to arrange my 20 point buy), I don't really like playing humans that much (I mean I get to be 1 everyday) but at the same time I don't think a lot of the races fit the role of a Monk (I just don't really see any of the core races as Monks, although I've been tempted to play a Dwarf Monk based on Zangief). Now don't get me wrong, I'm open to playing the other races as this character, I'll just probably laugh whenever I think of it. I was honestly thinking a Half-Elf, Half-Orc, or Halfling, I unfortunately cannot use the Beastiary races so no Tengu :( As far as feats go, I should meet the prerequisites by 3rd level (Dodge and Combat Reflexes from a my 1st and 2nd level Monk bonus feats, and Mobility as my 3rd level feat), other than that I'm not sure what else to take, I was thinking possibly Spring Attack, Wind Stance, and Vital Strike and then I'd only flurry if when I was full-attacking but I'm not sure.
First off, you cannot enter Shadowdancer until 6th level no matter how you try, since you need 5 ranks of Stealth.
Second off, yo're right, you will only flurry when you're full attacking because you [b]cannot[/i] flurry any other time. It's not a standar action - any time you get more than one attack, you must use a full-attack, no matter how you do it, flurry or otherwise.
Halflings have lower damage. I suggest not using them for anyone who relies on doing damage much. It's less of a problem if you have Sneak Attack, since those dice are d6 no matter the size of the attacker, but this build won't have that, so you'll feel the pinch. Also, halflings are lousy grapplers, which undermines one of the monk's best tricks.
Dwarves are slow. Monks can offset that, but a big advantage being a monk is moving fast. I would avoid slow races.
Human is still your best bet. Sure, you exist as one every day IRL, but you probably don't get to exist as a deadly martial arts master, leaping into combat delivering flurries of blows while cloaking yourself in shadow as your pet Shadow fights by your side every day.
If not human, then half-elf or half-orc aren't bad either.
I would suggest doing this the other way. Use your stealth skill to line up your full attack, and then crush someone. I'd watch Pitch Black again for inspiration.
I'd also suggest that human or half-orc is best. If you're starting out at low levels, that darkvision can really be nice to have.
Combat reflexes is great, you'll get a lot of AOs in the middle of the room, potentially, or when next to someone who thinks they are safely in the back.
I'd build a strong guy who beats people to death. Any feat that helps with that would be good. You might also want skill focus:stealth, shadowdancers live and die by their stealth rolls.
And I wouldn't stay in Shadowdancer too long. A level or two will do ya. Ask your DM if he'll let evasion or darkvision stack for any kind of benefit (by the RAW, I think not, but you can always ask)
Human is still your best bet. Sure, you exist as one every day IRL, but you probably don't get to exist as a deadly martial arts master, leaping into combat delivering flurries of blows while cloaking yourself in shadow as your pet Shadow fights by your side every day.
Yes I do... Well ok... You got me
Second off, yo're right, you will only flurry when you're full attacking because you cannot flurry any other time. It's not a standar action - any time you get more than one attack, you must use a full-attack, no matter how you do it, flurry or otherwise.
Yes I know that I meant because vital strike kind of takes away the Monks ability to flurry which is 1 of the big reasons people play Monks.
And I wouldn't stay in Shadowdancer too long. A level or two will do ya. Ask your DM if he'll let evasion or darkvision stack for any kind of benefit (by the RAW, I think not, but you can always ask)
Evasion doesn't but a Shadow Dancer that already has Darkvision adds 30ft to his existing Darkvision. I actually planned to take all 10 levels though I didn't really want to dip in and then out because I would like both Uncanny Dodges and shadowy abilities. As I said I'm pretending to be a Ninja and I was going to make some fluff up about Ninjas and shadows.
EDIT: Actually here's what I kind of had in mind.
Human, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc Monk 5/Shadow Dancer 10.
Str: 12
Dex: 17 (15+2)
Con: 12
Int: 10 or 12
Wis: 15
Cha: 10 or 12
1: Weapon Finesse
B: Dodge
B: Combat Reflexes
3: Mobility
then all feats from here are open at the moment
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Evasion doesn't but a Shadow Dancer that already has Darkvision adds 30ft to his existing Darkvision. I actually planned to take all 10 levels though I didn't really want to dip in and then out because I would like both Uncanny Dodges and shadowy abilities. As I said I'm pretending to be a Ninja and I was going to make some fluff up about Ninjas and shadows.
Have you considered actually taking the ninja class from complete adventurer? It's not that far off from being compatable for PF. Of course your DM would have to work with you on a few conversion things but I would run it past him.
DM doesn't want anything that's not core pathfinder. I honestly didn't like the Ninja from Complete Adventurer that much to be honest, I was more partial to the Oriental Adventures 1.
I unfortunately cannot use the Beastiary races so no Tengu :(
Does this mean that goblin is out? There's a nice bump to stealth to be had, but these are often difficult to roleplay...
Does this mean that goblin is out? There's a nice bump to stealth to be had, but these are often difficult to roleplay...
Ya everything has to be from the core rulebook
Can you get a ninja sword that allows you to flurry?
If the answer is no, you're going to have trouble doing damage throughout your career. At first level, it's only 1d6+1, and leaving monk will cap your unarmed strike damage. I think you'll get to 1d8+1, if memory serves.
This is far behind what a strong person with a katana would do. It's even well behind what a straight rogue could dish out.
If you move toward spring attack, you'll do even less damage a round after 6th level, because you'll never get multiple attacks a round.
I see this as a big problem. I played a 3.0/3.5 shadowdancer for years, and it mattered more and more every level.
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You could focus on the shuriken side of things. Deadly Aim, flurry, etc. You'll want a better strength to help with damage, let wisdom go a little.
Max out acrobatics, and you'll still be mobile in combat.
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Play a rogue/shadowdancer, and you'll at least have sneat attack. You don't have MAD issues, you can just buy armor at the store, and you can find traps too.
Rogues can take unarmed strike as well.
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If you set this character up to be entirely defensive, you'll end up disappointed with the results, I feel. Ninjas are supposed to be deadly.
See clip below for details.
http://askaninja.com/node/1146
Actually I just looked at something from the Pathfinder Campaign setting and a Monk treats a Temple Sword as a Monk weapon so I can flurry with that, it's still only a d8 but its something I could make magic and use 1 or 2 of etc. I could also pick up Combat Expertise/Improved Trip and trip people with it but idk about that yet. I honestly did think about the shuriken route and I might do that and carry around the temple sword for melee action every now and then. The only thing I don't like about shurikens is that they're treated as ammunition so if I get magic ones they're only usable once (well like 5 times for each set but you know what I mean).
Actually I just looked at something from the Pathfinder Campaign setting and a Monk treats a Temple Sword as a Monk weapon so I can flurry with that, it's still only a d8 but its something I could make magic and use 1 or 2 of etc. I could also pick up Combat Expertise/Improved Trip and trip people with it but idk about that yet. I honestly did think about the shuriken route and I might do that and carry around the temple sword for melee action every now and then. The only thing I don't like about shurikens is that they're treated as ammunition so if I get magic ones they're only usable once (well like 5 times for each set but you know what I mean).
A monk gets Imp Trip as a bonus feat at lvl6, without needing the requirements.
Also I dont see Zangief as a dwarf, rather look up Gouken from SF4. When I saw him for the first time, I couldnt help but suddenly see how a dwarven monk would look. A dwarf monk is a bit slower than other monks, but its well worth it. But I dont like role playing a dwarven monk all that much. Monks are mostly meant for the human races, including the half breeds. I also dont see too much trouble setting up a pure monk to be a ninja like class. Quivering palm from the shadows...
Actually I just looked at something from the Pathfinder Campaign setting and a Monk treats a Temple Sword as a Monk weapon so I can flurry with that,
Awesome, now you can get past all kinds of DR and spend money to enhance damage. Well done.
The only thing I don't like about shurikens is that they're treated as ammunition
This isn't automatically bad. Ammo can be quick-drawn, and it's 2000 gp to enhance 50 shuriken, not 2000 for a single +1 shuriken. Yes, it's rough if they are destroyed, but not as bad as it could be.
If you know someone who can cast Greater Magic Weapon, or possibly flame arrow, then you're in fine shape.
Actually I just looked at something from the Pathfinder Campaign setting and a Monk treats a Temple Sword as a Monk weapon so I can flurry with that,Awesome, now you can get past all kinds of DR and spend money to enhance damage. Well done.
The only problem with the temple sword is that it's a 1 handed exotic weapon so not only do I have to spend a feat to use it but I can't weapon finesse it so, like you said, I'll probably have to up my Strength and not care as much about Wisdom. I'll probably go with something like this - Str: 15, Dex: 16 (14+2), Con: 13, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Cha: 10 possibly even dropping my charisma some so I can have a higher strength but I don't really like ability scores below 10. If only I could be a Tengu...
The only problem with the temple sword is that it's a 1 handed exotic weapon so not only do I have to spend a feat to use it but I can't weapon finesse it so, like you said, I'll probably have to up my Strength and not care as much about Wisdom. I'll probably go with something like this - Str: 15, Dex: 16 (14+2), Con: 13, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Cha: 10 possibly even dropping my charisma some so I can have a higher strength but I don't really like ability scores below 10. If only I could be a Tengu...Actually I just looked at something from the Pathfinder Campaign setting and a Monk treats a Temple Sword as a Monk weapon so I can flurry with that,Awesome, now you can get past all kinds of DR and spend money to enhance damage. Well done.
Strength should be a priority for a monk. You don't need high dex to flurry, like you would for a traditional two-weapon fighter, and you get plenty of AC from wisdom. Weapon finesse should be a wasted feat for a monk...yes, dex is necessary, but not as much as strength.
Of course, I realize you're going ninja-stealth-shadowdancer style, so it's a bit more with you. If I were you I'd utterly dump your charisma and up that strength score so it's equivalent to your dex. You can even lower your int a little bit...you have plenty of skillpoints with monk and shadowdancer.
Strength should be a priority for a monk. You don't need high dex to flurry, like you would for a traditional two-weapon fighter, and you get plenty of AC from wisdom. Weapon finesse should be a wasted feat for a monk...yes, dex is necessary, but not as much as strength.
Of course, I realize you're going ninja-stealth-shadowdancer style, so it's a bit more with you. If I were you I'd utterly dump your charisma and up that strength score so it's equivalent to your dex. You can even lower your int a little bit...you have plenty of skillpoints with monk and shadowdancer.
The problem with dumping my Charisma though is that Charisma is what my spell-like abilities go off of as a Shadow Dancer. Maybe I should just do this as a Rogue or play a Ninja as a Rogue/Monk instead of Monk/Shadow Dancer... ugh...
The problem with dumping my Charisma though is that Charisma is what my spell-like abilities go off of as a Shadow Dancer. Maybe I should just do this as a Rogue or play a Ninja as a Rogue/Monk instead of Monk/Shadow Dancer... ugh...Strength should be a priority for a monk. You don't need high dex to flurry, like you would for a traditional two-weapon fighter, and you get plenty of AC from wisdom. Weapon finesse should be a wasted feat for a monk...yes, dex is necessary, but not as much as strength.
Of course, I realize you're going ninja-stealth-shadowdancer style, so it's a bit more with you. If I were you I'd utterly dump your charisma and up that strength score so it's equivalent to your dex. You can even lower your int a little bit...you have plenty of skillpoints with monk and shadowdancer.
Your point here is fairly valid. You're taking a MAD monk and making him MADder by shooting for a PrC that requires one of the few ability scores a monk could otherwise afford to ignore.
Maybe you can still do it, but you might need to accept the fact that you'll always be mediocre. Which means you choose this path because you want to RP the chewy ninja goodness rather than because you want to obliterate all foes who get in your way.
Or try a blend: Start monk, then at 6th level go Shadowdancer for just the two levels you need, then go rogue. Who cares, really, what your class name is? You call yourself a ninja no matter what the rulebook calls you, right?
Your point here is fairly valid. You're taking a MAD monk and making him MADder by shooting for a PrC that requires one of the few ability scores a monk could otherwise afford to ignore.
Maybe you can still do it, but you might need to accept the fact that you'll always be mediocre. Which means you choose this path because you want to RP the chewy ninja goodness rather than because you want to obliterate all foes who get in your way.
Or try a blend: Start monk, then at 6th level go Shadowdancer for just the two levels you need, then go rogue. Who cares, really, what your class name is? You call yourself a ninja no matter what the rulebook calls you, right?
Well of course my class levels don't really matter, I'd planned on calling myself a Ninja no matter what to begin with (much like you said). I may just do the mediocre thing like you said, I mean I had already planned on not being the best so why should it really matter if I'm just there for moving through the shadows and pretending I'm a ninja? The only thing I'm having trouble with is placing my ability scores... Maybe I will just do a Monk/Rogue instead of a Monk/Shadow Dancer, then I can be a Half-Elf and take advantage of their 1 multi-classing ability as well as having skill focus in Stealth.
The only thing I'm having trouble with is placing my ability scores... Maybe I will just do a Monk/Rogue instead of a Monk/Shadow Dancer, then I can be a Half-Elf and take advantage of their 1 multi-classing ability as well as having skill focus in Stealth.
Be sure to take Improvised Weapon Mastery, then. You carry a 1-handed weapon, right? Carry an improvised club in your off-hand...monks never get "an off hand" on their flurries. Make the first hit your improvised club, he's now flat-footed for all your subsequent hits = sneak attack goodness
The only thing I'm having trouble with is placing my ability scores... Maybe I will just do a Monk/Rogue instead of a Monk/Shadow Dancer, then I can be a Half-Elf and take advantage of their 1 multi-classing ability as well as having skill focus in Stealth.Be sure to take Improvised Weapon Mastery, then. You carry a 1-handed weapon, right? Carry an improvised club in your off-hand...monks never get "an off hand" on their flurries. Make the first hit your improvised club, he's now flat-footed for all your subsequent hits = sneak attack goodness
Here is where a lot of ppl miss read the rules. A monk who FoB, does not have an off-hand attack, but flurry takes the full round action so there shouldnt be any normal attack followed up by FoB. And even if this was possible, then the whole FoB would count as a secondary weapon attack.
Be sure to take Improvised Weapon Mastery, then. You carry a 1-handed weapon, right? Carry an improvised club in your off-hand...monks never get "an off hand" on their flurries. Make the first hit your improvised club, he's now flat-footed for all your subsequent hits = sneak attack goodness
Improvised weapons aren't Monk weapons so I can't flurry with them.
Improvised weapons aren't Monk weapons so I can't flurry with them.
Yeah, but a Quarterstaff is a monk weapon. It's basically a STICK. It costs 0gp, 0sp, 0cp...heck, it's just a stick you pick up off the ground. True, a Masterwork Quarterstaff isn't, but seriously...
...argumentatively speaking, it IS an improvised weapon. As is a club.
I would suggest that you write down all that you would want the ninja to be able to do and what he HAS to be able to do.Go from there and you can likely narrow down things or find a combination that works for you. It might be that at the end of the day you're class combination reads 'bard X' for your 'ninja' at level X.
If you separate the name of your class(es) breakdown from what you want for your character it can help you achieve what you're looking to find.
-James
Hide in Plain Sight - Shadow Dancer
Eastern Flavor - MonkBeing able to jump super high - Monk
Decent Skill points - Monk/Shadow Dancer
High Rate of Attack - Monk or TWF
Faster Movement than the Norm - Monk (don't really see Barbarians in the ninja build)
Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge - Shadow Dancer/Rogue (once again not diggin' raging ninjas)
Rogue Talents (especially Fast Stealth) - Shadow Dancer/Rogue
Shadow Familiar thing - Shadow Dancer
Teleportation - Shadow Dancer
(on a side note I could probably flavor an Inquisitor with the Travel Domain and TWF as a Ninja but none of the Travel domain favored weapons seem that ninja-y except maybe the starknife)