I'd wager you are wrong on this point.
And I'd wager that I'm not. Unfortunately (or, perhaps, fortunately) neither of us will ever know.
Yes, you might have been capable of creating PFRPG prior to 4th Edition. It would have been just about the worst decision Paizo could make, however.
Hyperbole alert! :)
I think Pathfinder RPG would have been unnecessary, possibly even unlikely, if WotC had continued on with 3.5. But they didn't. So can we just agree that many people who don't prefer 4th edition will probably end up Pathfinder RPG customers and leave it at that?
For a thread about keeping threads on track, the irony factor here is pretty awesome :)
Silence fool! Sidetracks that are personally interesting to me are always acceptable. You are sentenced to 10 lashes.
Yes, you might have been capable of creating PFRPG prior to 4th Edition. It would have been just about the worst decision Paizo could make, however.Hyperbole alert! :)
I think Pathfinder RPG would have been unnecessary, possibly even unlikely, if WotC had continued on with 3.5. But they didn't. So can we just agree that many people who don't prefer 4th edition will probably end up Pathfinder RPG customers and leave it at that?
Yep.
While Paizo's flagship product is/will be the Pathfinder RPG as well as the Adventure paths, Paizo does have products (including the APs) that contain lots of system light information. There is very little rules crunch in the Pathfinder Chronicles line of products.
This encourages their use with systems other than PFRPG or even D&D 3.5. People might use them with any system. Perhaps they'll go with GURPS, or maybe Tri-stat, or BRP (the system Call of Cthulhu uses) or perhaps with one of the indy games like Dogs in the Vineyard. Or perhaps Burning Wheel. Or the system from the World of Darkness. Or 4th edition D&D. Or True20. Or Champions, OD&D/BECMI, or AD&D. Or Spirit of the Century or GUMSHOE. Or any of the other hundreds of systems out there.
Now if someone comes to the forums and posts about the system in question, why would you bother going into a thread in that forum and basically saying "the system you like sucks!"?
All it will do is give people a bad taste in their mouth. They bought or are interested in a Paizo product. They come to paizo.com and you give them a bad taste in their mouth because of the system they are talking about. Are you helping Paizo by doing that?
Just. Don't. Do. It.
It would have been just about the worst decision Paizo could make, however.O.k., now you are just being silly.
To all accounts it has been a phenomenal success. Vic is clearly asserting the market isn't anti-4e, and they would prefer a healthy pro-3.5 attitude, which is a massive difference.
Its almost like you, Scott, want everyone to be against you, you can play whatever system you like, I actually quite enjoy your conversion blog, but 4e just didn't wow me. And the same goes for paizo.
Also, people still have all of their 3.5 stuff, and srd. 3.5 could have lived on with a lot less work on Paizo's behalf. I think PFRPG was an ineveitability. That 4e is so radical a change may be a good thing, now there are two very different games based off D&D. People can dabble in both, play in one or the other or decide Firefly RPG, or WoW RPG are the worlds for them.
As for a bad business decision, Paizo just dont need numbers even close to what 4e requires to sell, even if PFRPG stays a fringe game, I imagine it will be a relative success.
So I'd appreciate you didn't paint everyone who loves 3.5, and the unpcoming PFRPG as doing so only through 4e hate. I don't care, PFRPG is for me, to each their own. If you see yourself as a resident 4e representative, its on you to make a positive impact here, be the face of a tolerant game-loving 4e player/dm, not a victim of existant but over emphasised edition war mongering.
So I'd appreciate you didn't paint everyone who loves 3.5, and the unpcoming PFRPG as doing so only through 4e hate.
I am certainly not doing that. Saying that a substantial portion of the potential PFRPG playerbase is dissatisfied with 4th Edition is not the same as saying the only reason they're interested in Pathfinder is because they don't like 4th Edition.
And I don't necessarily believe that PFRPG is a bad business decision. What I was saying is that I believe it would have been a bad business decision while WotC was still publishing D&D 3.5. Whether it's a good business decision in the current climate is something time will tell. I hope it works out well, though.
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So I'd appreciate you didn't paint everyone who loves 3.5, and the unpcoming PFRPG as doing so only through 4e hate.I am certainly not doing that. Saying that a substantial portion of the potential PFRPG playerbase is dissatisfied with 4th Edition is not the same as saying the only reason they're interested in Pathfinder is because they don't like 4th Edition.
You are correct, it is not the same thing ... not quite. But the inference is there. You had stated that
It makes sense for Paizo to aim their product at those dissatisfied with 4th Edition; one need only read the reactions to a mention of 4e on a Pathfinder thread to get an idea of how much of their player base views the game.
So if the reactions to mentions of 4e on a Pathfinder thread lead to the implied negative response, it would seem to follow that supporters of PFRPG are anti-4e. As you had also stated that
Pretending that the same continuity of playerbase exists between D&D 3.5 and D&D 4th Edition as between D&D 3.5 and GURPS is nonsense
it would also follow that as there is not the same level of continuity between 3.5/4e and 3.5 and other systems the natural course for folks who don't like 4e would seem to be a migration to a 3.5 (read PFRPG) style system. This then follows to the implied message of "the only reason they're interested in Pathfinder is because they don't like 4th Edition."
Additionally, you seem to be inferring that 4e is a superior product to PFRPG and calling into question Paizo's abilities. It is your choice of wording that lends itself to this interpretation:
And I don't necessarily believe that PFRPG is a bad business decision. {emphasis mine}
Yes, you might have been capable of creating PFRPG prior to 4th Edition. {bold emphasis mine}
the reason your product is even feasible in the first place is that 4th Edition exists
Please know that I am not making the claim that any of the above is an intentional aspect to your posts, but I do want to make you aware of them. If one were to post with these same type of inferences towards 4e (that is that PFRPG is superior and WotC may not be up to the challenge of creating a new system), it could very well degenerate into a flame war which does no one any good.
The bottom line is each game is what it is. Folks will typically find that one system will click for them more than the other, some will find they enjoy both and some others may find they prefer neither. It is all a matter of personal taste.
As it boils down to personal taste, which is subjective, making statements about what other products folks who like PFRPG like or don't like is pretty pointless.
For what it is worth, there is one game system that's been marketed as the "anti 3.5" system. With ads that all but screamed "3.5 is wrong, and no fun!"
Guess which one has used such negative advertising?
And guess why, with such a bad-tasting start, there's still abd blood lingering, and heralds of that system don't get that much of a warm receotion where those who don't think 3.5 is all bad gather?
<Self-edited whole post out, because really, what's the point? Scott can come in here and think anything he wants.>
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For what it is worth, there is one game system that's been marketed as the "anti 3.5" system. With ads that all but screamed "3.5 is wrong, and no fun!"
Guess which one has used such negative advertising?
As yes, the one that compared character creation to 'boring math' and said that if you used craft or profession skills in your games, then 'frankly, your games aren't any fun?'
Yeah, that ad campaign reeked of class.
It's like negative-spun political campaigns. I don't want to here why the other guy sucks, I want to hear why I should pull the lever for you.
4E has lots of cool ideas. It's also not what I was looking for.
Pathfinder, *far* from being the 'anti-4E' is incorporating some of the progressive concepts from 4E, such as the racial bump to +2/+2/-2, making strident proclamations that it's the 'anti-4E' just sound like excuses to talk smack about it from some moral high ground, since it's been more accurately described as '3.75.'
Instead of saying '4E sucks,' Pathfinder seems to be saying, '3.5 *doesn't* suck, let's see if we can save the baby when we toss out the bathwater, shall we?'
But, since I'm not seething with negativity, despite 4E now being D&D, meaning that 'my side lost the edition wars,' perhaps I'm not as bitter as the 'winning side.'
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While Paizo's flagship product is/will be the Pathfinder RPG as well as the Adventure paths, Paizo does have products (including the APs) that contain lots of system light information. There is very little rules crunch in the Pathfinder Chronicles line of products.
This encourages their use with systems other than PFRPG or even D&D 3.5. People might use them with any system. Perhaps they'll go with GURPS, or maybe Tri-stat, or BRP (the system Call of Cthulhu uses) or perhaps with one of the indy games like Dogs in the Vineyard. Or perhaps Burning Wheel. Or the system from the World of Darkness. Or 4th edition D&D. Or True20. Or Champions, OD&D/BECMI, or AD&D. Or Spirit of the Century or GUMSHOE. Or any of the other hundreds of systems out there.
Now if someone comes to the forums and posts about the system in question, why would you bother going into a thread in that forum and basically saying "the system you like sucks!"?
All it will do is give people a bad taste in their mouth. They bought or are interested in a Paizo product. They come to paizo.com and you give them a bad taste in their mouth because of the system they are talking about. Are you helping Paizo by doing that?
Just. Don't. Do. It.
HERO sucks! not even poodles can deny that!
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You are correct, it is not the same thing ... not quite. But the inference is there. You had stated thatSo I'd appreciate you didn't paint everyone who loves 3.5, and the unpcoming PFRPG as doing so only through 4e hate.I am certainly not doing that. Saying that a substantial portion of the potential PFRPG playerbase is dissatisfied with 4th Edition is not the same as saying the only reason they're interested in Pathfinder is because they don't like 4th Edition.
Um the thing is that any inference can be there, I can infer from his comments that HERO is the best game on the planet, that doesn't matter, the question is whether the implication is there and I'm willing to accept that he didn't intend to imply it, but considering that earlier in this thread we read comments from a poster on the WotC boards who was heavily implying it through very similar statements, I think it is a bit disingenuous to say that he couldn't expect people who read his comments to not infer it.
Additionally, you seem to be inferring that 4e is a superior product to PFRPG and calling into question Paizo's abilities. It is your choice of wording that lends itself to this interpretation:
again he isn't inferring it, he's implying it.
HERO sucks! not even poodles can deny that!
Clearly, sir, you are delusional.
Clearly, sir, you are delusional.What does that have to do with anything mr. purple stapler that talks and staples with waffles instead of staples?
I do not mind you keeping your preposterous imaginings to yourself. However, when you come here to spout your ill-founded vitriol and ignorance it is my duty to point out how wrong you are. If you have nothing constructive to say about a clearly superior system your small mind is incapable of appreciating, then you have not point in gaming at all. Please sell all of your RPG books and take up coin collecting. The community at large will be much better for it.
I do not mind you keeping your preposterous imaginings to yourself. However, when you come here to spout your ill-founded vitriol and ignorance it is my duty to point out how wrong you are. If you have nothing constructive to say about a clearly superior system your small mind is incapable of appreciating, then you have not point in gaming at all. Please sell all of your RPG books and take up coin collecting. The community at large will be much better for it.** spoiler omitted **
Are you saying that coin collecting is inferior to Hero? Screw you, poodle-boy!
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stuff about "implication vs inference"
touche. Yes, I should have used the term implication/imply/etc. But it was like 630am with me running on less than 3 hours of sleep; I'm surprised I was able to put together sentences in a logical fashion. ;p
And as I had said in the initial posting I'm sure the latter part of what I mentioned was not intentional on Scott's part.
This still doesn't change the fact that arguments about what PFRPG players prefer or not is largely irrelevant as it all boils down to personal choice and taste.
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Clearly, sir, you are delusional.What does that have to do with anything mr. purple stapler that talks and staples with waffles instead of staples?
I do not mind you keeping your preposterous imaginings to yourself. However, when you come here to spout your ill-founded vitriol and ignorance it is my duty to point out how wrong you are. If you have nothing constructive to say about a clearly superior system your small mind is incapable of appreciating, then you have not point in gaming at all. Please sell all of your RPG books and take up coin collecting. The community at large will be much better for it.
** spoiler omitted **
Geeze it looks like another thread derailed by the HERO-for-hire. Here to derail yet another thread in defense of a system because he imagines slights against it from such innocent comments like "HERO is aweful and playing it is like shoving nails through kittens" I mean seriously, how can you see something as innocuous and on topic as that as ill founded vitriol, maybe if you spent more time on playing real RPGs instead of surfing the forums looking for threads to defend, we'd actually be able to stay on topic.
Geeze it looks like another thread derailed by the HERO-for-hire. Here to derail yet another thread in defense of a system because he imagines slights against it from such innocent comments like "HERO is aweful and playing it is like shoving nails through kittens" I mean seriously, how can you see something as innocuous and on topic as that as ill founded vitriol, maybe if you spent more time on playing real RPGs instead of surfing the forums looking for threads to defend, we'd actually be able to stay on topic.
Wisdom.
I had a Hero 5th edition revised on my bookshelf...one day, it dislodged itself, fell, and killed my grandmother.*
True story.
* The details of this incident have been changed slightly. There was no grandmother involved. Or Hero book. Or incident, for that matter.
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"HERO is aweful and playing it is like shoving nails through kittens"Waht you want to say is that the system is awful but playing it is fun?
How good is it on a scale of 1 Inch Nails or 9 inch Nails?
that depends do you have more fun with short nails or long nails?
If you have fun with long nails then I'd rate it a 1/36" nail and if you have fun with short nails then I'd rate it a 36" nail
Geeze it looks like another thread derailed by the HERO-for-hire.
I will tolerate these founded accusations! If only the moderators would do nothing. How dare you, sir, come in here and not put words in my mouth? This is completely called for.
I had a Hero 5th edition revised on my bookshelf...one day, it dislodged itself, fell, and killed my grandmother.*
This story is obvious and complete fabrication. If you ever actually were in the presence of the one true rule book you would no longer jeapordize your immortal gaming soul with false systems. Why do you reject Hero when all it wants is to bring you out of the darkness of class based mechanics?
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LOL! Classic!Geeze it looks like another thread derailed by the HERO-for-hire.I will tolerate these founded accusations! If only the moderators would do nothing. How dare you, sir, come in here and not put words in my mouth? This is completely called for.
Yeah whenever courtfool and I begin escalating our absurdity good things happen. We play off each other well, like kittens and sharks
We play off each other well, like kittens and sharks
You getting hungry too?
Oh, the irony of the thread title.
Did you honestly expect any different?
especially with the two of us, I mean we stayed on topic for like three whole posts each, that's practically a record for us.
Was it that long? I felt a little winded there at the end.
Uh, well, you know. You go out there and you give 110%. And you wanna post good. And you hope you post good. I think we posted pretty good tonight.
I'd wager you are wrong on this point.And I'd wager that I'm not. Unfortunately (or, perhaps, fortunately) neither of us will ever know.
I think it's rather obvious you're wrong. They could have bussed into the Idaho wilderness, formed a commune, and set about hand assembling Beta video tapes of Lawrence Welk shows to sell in Burkina Faso.
But that's what hyperbole gets you. It's too easy to prove it wrong by coming up with something genuinely ridiculous.
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Yeah whenever courtfool and I begin escalating our absurdity good things happen. We play off each other well, like kittens and sharksLOL! Classic!Geeze it looks like another thread derailed by the HERO-for-hire.I will tolerate these founded accusations! If only the moderators would do nothing. How dare you, sir, come in here and not put words in my mouth? This is completely called for.
You guys are freaking funny =)
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You guys are freaking funny =)Yeah whenever courtfool and I begin escalating our absurdity good things happen. We play off each other well, like kittens and sharksLOL! Classic!Geeze it looks like another thread derailed by the HERO-for-hire.I will tolerate these founded accusations! If only the moderators would do nothing. How dare you, sir, come in here and not put words in my mouth? This is completely called for.
No. No they are not. They are just small sad men trying to make themselves feel good by crapping in other people's threads.
Don't EVER call them funny. it will go to their heads, and then their posts would deflate in quality like a late 90's metallica album. You have to keep them insulted in order to get the good stuff
They just suck.
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You guys are freaking funny =)Yeah whenever courtfool and I begin escalating our absurdity good things happen. We play off each other well, like kittens and sharksLOL! Classic!Geeze it looks like another thread derailed by the HERO-for-hire.I will tolerate these founded accusations! If only the moderators would do nothing. How dare you, sir, come in here and not put words in my mouth? This is completely called for.No. No they are not. They are just small sad men trying to make themselves feel good by crapping in other people's threads.
** spoiler omitted **
They just suck.
You're also pretty damn funny
As yes, the one that compared character creation to 'boring math' and said that if you used craft or profession skills in your games, then 'frankly, your games aren't any fun?'For what it is worth, there is one game system that's been marketed as the "anti 3.5" system. With ads that all but screamed "3.5 is wrong, and no fun!"
Guess which one has used such negative advertising?
Didn't I hear some of that from people talking about how PFRPG's skill system was superior to 3.5?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Over the years I've come to appreciate that the stylistic influences in both music, tone, and subject matter that made me fall in love with Metallica in the first place came disproportionately from the influence of Cliff Burton and Dave Mustaine (probably in that order). As the band moved further from their influence, my interest waned. To me the Black Ablum was the point where the old Metallica died and the "Bob Rock" producer-based Metallica took over. I did not buy a single album from them after that, and still haven't.
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Over the years I've come to appreciate that the stylistic influences in both music, tone, and subject matter that made me fall in love with Metallica in the first place came disproportionately from the influence of Cliff Burton and Dave Mustaine (probably in that order). As the band moved further from their influence, my interest waned. To me the Black Ablum was the point where the old Metallica died and the "Bob Rock" producer-based Metallica took over. I did not buy a single album from them after that, and still haven't.
Is the younger audience WotC is trying to get into the RPG fold even aware of Cliff Burton?
Just trying to relate SOMETHING to the topic :)
(And Erik, I ninja'd you by a day on the irony thing ;) )
Is the younger audience WotC is trying to get into the RPG fold even aware of Cliff Burton?
Just trying to relate SOMETHING to the topic :)
(And Erik, I ninja'd you by a day on the irony thing ;) )
I dunno about WotC but Metallica fans my age are all 'old' metallica fans. Having picked it up from older brothers, cousins, etc. It's kind of contagious. Many of my friends little brothers, and indeed my own are now inheriting it.
Metallica have changed alot in their various eras, not always well, not always at the forfront of metal, but I've always found it very 'listenable' [is that a word?]. I could sit down and listen to an album, and I've never found better music for housework/chores.
I was at a mettallica gig three years ago on my birthday, it was the tour to commemorate 20years after the release of Master of Puppets, [which is older than I am]. The entire show was dedicated to Cliff. Tens of thousands of people stood together in silence for the short thingy on the big screens, and a moment for Cliff. From 14 year olds, to 50 year olds, filling the stands in the RDS in Dublin. Whatever else about Metallica but they put on a damn good show.