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OK so here I am think about how the succubus is such a "spell-happy" creature and being the fan I am of such creatures I was wondering if anyone on the boards could offer advice on a succubus that uses contact poisens to incite her prey and fog their minds instead of all the spell casting? I want to remove most of her spell like abilities and instead make her a more physical threat.
OK so here I am think about how the succubus is such a "spell-happy" creature and being the fan I am of such creatures I was wondering if anyone on the boards could offer advice on a succubus that uses contact poisens to incite her prey and fog their minds instead of all the spell casting? I want to remove most of her spell like abilities and instead make her a more physical threat.
A poison that lowers Int and/or Wis temporarily could work, given the 'effects' such drugs have on idiots in RL.
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Kinda what I'm shootin' for Db3. I want them to be much greater threats than they are, capable of seducing the strongest willed men and consuming their life force thru "feeding", but unfortunatly I'm outta meds and can't seem to get my creativity bones workin'.
What should I set the DC at? I was thinkin Fort DC25 at its most potent and maybe a DC15 for something as subtle as a kiss.
Kinda what I'm shootin' for Db3. I want them to be much greater threats than they are, capable of seducing the strongest willed men and consuming their life force thru "feeding", but unfortunatly I'm outta meds and can't seem to get my creativity bones workin'.
What should I set the DC at? I was thinkin Fort DC25 at its most potent and maybe a DC15 for something as subtle as a kiss.
Natural Poison DC defaults based on the monsters Con. I believe (memory fuzzy) the formula is (10 + 1/2 HD + Con bonus)
The lady would have to spend feats to increase the DC further after that: Ability Focus (+2 DC)
Kinda what I'm shootin' for Db3. I want them to be much greater threats than they are, capable of seducing the strongest willed men and consuming their life force thru "feeding", but unfortunatly I'm outta meds and can't seem to get my creativity bones workin'.
What should I set the DC at? I was thinkin Fort DC25 at its most potent and maybe a DC15 for something as subtle as a kiss.
For these kinds of succubi, you have to think of the pcs you'll be using them against. For those with high fort saves, the save should be the higher one(but not out of reach), but those of weak body may need only the kissing poison to get the effects. As one who hunts men for a living, the succubus should be able to tell who is what if she spends some time watching the party. Give the Pcs a chance to notice her though, at least a glimpse to make them wary(the whole I-think-Isaw-something bit). For any female characters, its easy to change the succubi into an inccubi(or succubi who aren't picky ;}).
First, note that the "hell" you will unleash is more of an abyss. To truly unleash hell, send in an Erinyes insted.
Incidentally, have you considered using the Erinyes?
And if it must be a demon, you call call it a "Succubus Brute" and simply use the stats for the Erinyes, maybe with one little tweak: lose the animated rope and give her a different toy, such as a level draining kiss, and nobody would be the wiser.
Lets look at the succubus, ability by ability.
Kiss:
Nothing wrong with the energy drain. She leaches levels. It's what she does. And that is Fort based, DC 21.
The Kiss also plants a suggestion, Will save DC 21, or you have to kiss her again and lose another level.
She has spell-like abilities. Do you plan to remove those? If not, the Charm Monster and Suggestion spell-like abilities might be how even a poisonous physical succubus gets close to her victims.
Changing shape, Tongues, and summoning other demons sound like things to be left alone on both versions of succubus.
So to keep the same CR, we might want to change her kiss to sap CON insted of planting the suggestion.
Calling it a natural poison is a bit tricky, because that would lower the save DC from 21 to 14. That's an awfully low save DC for this scary old succubus. Why? Poison save DCs are based on the creature's CON (hers is only 13), but her Suggestion power is based on her CHA of 26.
So maybe call it just a natural (really a supernatural) ability, the way a shadow drains Strength.
But there is one other major consideration, or your pretty Lilly will fall on her face and get hazed by the other little demons on the playground.
In order to kiss (the text says "some act of passion") a victim, the victim must be willing. If you take away the succubus' ability to cast suggestion, she won't find many willing victims.
If the victim is not willing, the succubus must grapple the victim.
The succubus in the book is a CR 7 monster with a CMB of 7 (BAB 6, +1 for STR).
A CR 7 monster who has a primary special ability, one that is very much core to the monster, that depends on grapple will need to have a much higher CMB to pull it off.
So she either needs the suggestion, to make her victims willing, or she needs physical stats like the Erinyes already has. Or lots of feats that make her more powerful in grapples.
To summarize:
Don't make the draining kiss a poison, or you will need to totally revise her ability scores to give her a really good CON.
Don't take away her Suggestion or you will need to make her into a grappling machine.
If you take away both (the kiss and the suggestion) and just turn her into a tank, then you might want to just stat her up like the Erinyes and make it easy on yourself.
And finally, no jokes about "hell" when you're talking about a demon; they don't like that, not one bit...
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First, note that the "hell" you will unleash is more of an abyss. To truly unleash hell, send in an Erinyes insted.
Incidentally, have you considered using the Erinyes?
And if it must be a demon, you call call it a "Succubus Brute" and simply use the stats for the Erinyes, maybe with one little tweak: lose the animated rope and give her a different toy, such as a level draining kiss, and nobody would be the wiser.
Lets look at the succubus, ability by ability.
Kiss:
Nothing wrong with the energy drain. She leaches levels. It's what she does. And that is Fort based, DC 21.The Kiss also plants a suggestion, Will save DC 21, or you have to kiss her again and lose another level.
She has spell-like abilities. Do you plan to remove those? If not, the Charm Monster and Suggestion spell-like abilities might be how even a poisonous physical succubus gets close to her victims.
Changing shape, Tongues, and summoning other demons sound like things to be left alone on both versions of succubus.
So to keep the same CR, we might want to change her kiss to sap CON insted of planting the suggestion.
Calling it a natural poison is a bit tricky, because that would lower the save DC from 21 to 14. That's an awfully low save DC for this scary old succubus. Why? Poison save DCs are based on the creature's CON (hers is only 13), but her Suggestion power is based on her CHA of 26.
So maybe call it just a natural (really a supernatural) ability, the way a shadow drains Strength.
But there is one other major consideration, or your pretty Lilly will fall on her face and get hazed by the other little demons on the playground.
In order to kiss (the text says "some act of passion") a victim, the victim must be willing. If you take away the succubus' ability to cast suggestion, she won't find many willing victims.
If the victim is not willing, the succubus must grapple the victim.
The succubus in the book is a CR 7 monster with a CMB of 7 (BAB 6, +1 for STR).
A CR 7 monster who has a primary...
Oh don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with the current succubus, just wanted to change her up to work a little different than the way she works now. And to be honest my wife and I are fans of erotic horror and have seen many examples of low magic succubi who use pheremones and mind altering poisons to acheive their goals. Plus I thought it might be good to throw my know to much players for a loop when the she-DEMON(happy ;p) doesn't work the way they think she should.
Oh don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with the current succubus, just wanted to change her up to work a little different than the way she works now. And to be honest my wife and I are fans of erotic horror and have seen many examples of low magic succubi who use pheremones and mind altering poisons to acheive their goals. Plus I thought it might be good to throw my know to much players for a loop when the she-DEMON(happy ;p) doesn't work the way they think she should.
I'm not saying either you or I thought there is anything wrong with the succubus.
Your OP asked for ideas on reworking her as a more physical less magical nightmare from the abyss, so I was throwing out some thoughts, things I would consider if I tried to that very same thing.
Pheromones instead of magic is cool. I like it. Probably still a Will save, possibly CON based instead of CHA based (I could argue either, but CON-based would be horribly weak unless your modified succubus was compensated for her low CON score).
Same with mind-altering poisons. Cool, but dangerous with a 13 CON.
And it's always good to sucker punch those know-it-all players with new twists. When I'm a player, I like that - I like the surprises, keeps a game I've played for well over three decades fresh. So I assume my plyers like sucker punches too.
As for erotic horror fiction, more power to us!
I wouldn't go so far as to say my novel coming out in June is "erotic" per say (well, it really isn't) but it is a blend of fantasy and horror fiction, and my primary villain does skirt dangerously with concepts like rape and incest and there is second-hand evidence that he's a pedophile too, though I very deliberately left that aspect of his vile nature out of the book. Must sell copies. Can't offend editors, publishers, or readers.
But that's probably the wrong type of erotic. As for the good type, well, there just wasn't room for it in this novel, though my two main characters are heading that direction. Maybe the sequel; it is specced out as a trilogy.
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Now Blake you got to at least give me the name of the novel, how else am I supposed to go out and buy it? I mean then I can at least say I kinda know the guy that wrote it. Don't you know how to plug a book? lol
You got some good ideas, I don't wanna mess with her stats too much, so probably will try and keep it Cha based, as much as I can, although wouldn't they crap if they relized her Con was 26! I think the main change in how you fight her would be the saves, from Will(magic) to Fort(pheremones/poisons). Makes it more likely she would get her... uhm.. claws into the mage types. After all young would be wizards are more likely to mess around and summon one thinking they could have some fun before sending her back right?
EDIT: meant to ask if you knew any way thru the rules to use her Cha for Fort DCs?
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stuffs...
The Advanced Bestiary, by Green Ronin offers several templates that can be applied to monsters to make them very different.
You could, for instance use the Amalgam template to combine the Succubus with any poisonous creature you like. Maybe a Succubus combined with a Wyvern to give her pointy little tail a nice poison attack.
So maybe give the Succubus Improved Grab and Poison from the Wyvern, add that to the already intact Succubus, lower the Succubus' INT and raise its CON to make it a bit more bestial. Add more STR and subtract some CHA to make it more physical so its CMB rises higher to about what you are looking for.
If you really want the bestial nature, drop the suggestion and make sure its STR is high enough for a good CMB. This way, the creature is more in line with a demon, it takes by force, not seduction. It can have its kiss attack and a tail (poison) attack.
Maybe give it Pounce as well, so it can charge and make a full attack.
As a custom creature for your particular party I would not worry much about a scientific approach to CR. Maybe party level +1 would do.
Just make sure the STR and CMB is high enough to be a challenge, and make sure its poison is high enough to be a threat.
You can have the beasty sometimes stand on two legs, sometimes on all fours. It charges/pounces with a bone chilling roar, and promptly engages in a grapple to force the soul sucking kiss. It throws in a poisonous tail sting on occasion just for fun.
I looked at Succubus, Wyvern and Lion and just essentially combined their abilities to something nasty and bestial for all three.
Would be different anyway.
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stuffs...The Advanced Bestiary, by Green Ronin offers several templates that can be applied to monsters to make them very different.
You could, for instance use the Amalgam template to combine the Succubus with any poisonous creature you like. Maybe a Succubus combined with a Wyvern to give her pointy little tail a nice poison attack.
So maybe give the Succubus Improved Grab and Poison from the Wyvern, add that to the already intact Succubus, lower the Succubus' INT and raise its CON to make it a bit more bestial. Add more STR and subtract some CHA to make it more physical so its CMB rises higher to about what you are looking for.
If you really want the bestial nature, drop the suggestion and make sure its STR is high enough for a good CMB. This way, the creature is more in line with a demon, it takes by force, not seduction. It can have its kiss attack and a tail (poison) attack.
Maybe give it Pounce as well, so it can charge and make a full attack.
As a custom creature for your particular party I would not worry much about a scientific approach to CR. Maybe party level +1 would do.
Just make sure the STR and CMB is high enough to be a challenge, and make sure its poison is high enough to be a threat.
You can have the beasty sometimes stand on two legs, sometimes on all fours. It charges/pounces with a bone chilling roar, and promptly engages in a grapple to force the soul sucking kiss. It throws in a poisonous tail sting on occasion just for fun.
I looked at Succubus, Wyvern and Lion and just essentially combined their abilities to something nasty and bestial for all three.
Would be different anyway.
Not a bad idea for a succubus that just doesn't have time for seduction, maybe one that relized she had mor fun forcing her prey than woo-ing them. I may keep that in mind.
Now Blake you got to at least give me the name of the novel, how else am I supposed to go out and buy it? I mean then I can at least say I kinda know the guy that wrote it. Don't you know how to plug a book? lol
Sure I do.
First, bait the hook with a teaser.
If there's a nibble, then reel them in.
How's this:
Would you sell your soul to save mankind?
Young Katrina finds herself cursed with an
immense and awful power at the center of a struggle
for world domination. Evil entities from the foulest
pits of the abyss plot to invade her world and
slaughter and subjugate all of mankind.
Only Katrina holds the power to stop them. But she
quickly learns that using this power will require
that she sacrifice her very soul to save mankind.
Can she defeat the ultimate evil before she
surrenders the last of her soul and becomes a soulless
pawn of the very evil she is fighting to destroy?
EDIT: meant to ask if you knew any way thru the rules to use her Cha for Fort DCs?
Not a one.
The "generic" rules for monsters are pretty basic. Poison is a Fort save and the DC is CON-based. I don't know of any SRD exceptions (or non-SRD either). I thought maybe the Pseudodragon, since his stinger puts people to sleep. Sleep is a Will effect, so maybe his poison is different. Nope. Fort save based on CON.
Using CHA for Fort saves really is hard to justify. She has so much charm and personality that the poison coursing through your veins is more potent?
I would just go with CON.
You wanted this "brute succubus" to be more brutish, more direct in its not-so-charming way.
So bump up the CON, drop a bit of CHA, and make her very tough. The save will be weaker, but you can always take the cheap way out of giving her a racial modifier to the save DC. For precedent, see the text description of that same Psudodragon - his save DC includes a +2 racial bonus.
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Not a bad idea for a succubus that just doesn't have time for seduction, maybe one that relized she had mor fun forcing her prey than woo-ing them. I may keep that in mind.
Really the idea for a succubus like this is from James Jacobs on these forums. He has said over and over that in Pathfinder demons are aggressive, violent creatures and the succubus will remain a demon. He would then suggest that the succubus does not entice or seduce but instead rapes and violates its victims.
So to me, that suggests an all together different build for the succubus. The 3.5 succubus is all about seduction. Seduction is more of a diabolical trait.
To remain demonic, the succubus needs to be able to take by force.
Your idea of poison inspired me to look at my own wants, and combining Succubus with Wyvern and Lion achieved what I think a demonic succubus should be like.
It is just my own preference of course and many others are equally valid (said to stop any flame wars about my opinion being dumb or minimizing someone else's idea).
Oh, so now it's netherworld ethics, is it?
(long post, but I hope you find it entertaining)
First and foremost, demons are wild and chaotic. They believe in might makes right. They believe in dominating and controlling their enemies by brute force and savagery.
Devils are organized and methodical. They believe in order makes right. They love nothing more than to make a contract and fulfill it to the exact letter, knowing all the while that there is a glaring loophole that you were too inferior to recognize.
But the real question is what do both demons and devils want?
My answer, it's the same for both of them, is they want to grab souls of the departed and deny them their eternal peace, wherever that may be.
Why do they do that?
Well, someone's got to get them. There was a job opening in the Divine hierarchy, too demeaning for a god or demigod to fulfill, so demons, devils, angels, and archons were created.
What's that job?
Some souls just don't have eternal peace. Atheists. Unfaithful. Blasphemers. Etc.
Those souls aren't going on to happy, or unhappy places. No god has a claim on them. They are drifters. Celestial hobos.
So the gods created the demons, devils, angels, and archons to claim these souls.
Why?
To motivate the living to live right. Make a decision. No atheism or look at your horrible afterlife. Once you've made the decision, stick to it. No blasphemy. No hubris. No false faith. Or else.
But, some mortals didn't listen.
And the demons and devels, andgels and archons found out it was wonderful to claim a soul. What they did with these souls is for another time and place, but they all covet them, each for their own ends.
And once they learned to covet souls, they began scheming how to get more of them.
For devils, the choice was obvious. Temptation. Not just sexual temptation, but all kinds. Wealth. Power. Respect. Fame. Adulation. Love. Sex. Whatever.
So they tempt mortals. Offer bargains. You want to be rich? No problem. All you have to do is forsake Iomedae. She's not making you wealthy, is she? We can make you rich. Richer than even you can imagine. Just say these simple words: "I forsake Iomedae." and all that wealth is yours. I promise.
And devils keep their word. To the letter. Promise a man wealth, that man will get wealth. Too bad for him if he wasn't specific about how much, or how soon, or how long he holds it before it is taken from him, or who the wealth really belongs to, or any other loophole the devil thinks is funny at the time.
Sooner than he can imagine, that poor man has forsaken his goddess and is a free soul, ripe for the plucking.
It would be very helpful if he died very soon. If not, he may find absolution and return to Iomedae. Or maybe he'll find some other god. All that hard work will have been wasted.
So it's very likely that poor free soul will suffer a grave accident shortly after making his bargain.
And now the devil harvests the soul, happy as can be.
But what of demons?
They lie. They cheat. They would steal if they could, but they can't steal a soul from a god. So they trick mortals too.
But in the case of demons, they tempt them with lies. False contracts they never intend to fulfill - it's too much work to make the idiot rich. Just get him to sign and rip out his throat. Done.
Even better, get some other demon to do all the legwork and get the signature, then show up at the last second and harvest that soul, cheating the other demon out of it, without ever breaking a sweat.
But, demon or devil, they both tempt.
It's one thing to sniff out the people who are already lost. Find that atheist or that blasphemer, arrange an accident before he finds a religion, call it a good day's work.
But remember, they covet the souls.
Finding that rare needle in that haystack of fealtry and zealotry among feeble mortals all seeking a higher power to guide them is a long and thankless task.
Hence the temptation.
Lead the mortal astray. Don't wait to find what you can create with a little bit of temptation.
Which is why both sides have their temptress. Erinyes and Succubi. They provide one kind of temptation, the obvious one. Easy to lead astray a happily married mortal when they have those kinds of Charisma and perfect shapechange into any mortal they want. If that poor sap belongs to a faith that has no tolerance for adultery, well, then a little dalliance with either of these bat-winged ladies will expel him from the faith, and his soul will be ripe for the harvesting.
The succubus harvests through the kiss. The erinyes harvests with her blade or bow.
The succubus is more demonic than diabolic, for what she offers is not real. She offers her body, but each kiss is another step into the grave. If you don't comply, she takes it anyway with her domination. There is no contract. No planning. No fulfilling of oaths. Just passion and betrayal and death. The way of the demon.
The erinyes gives you want you want. A night with a perfect body. Ultimate sex. Maybe she'll even be your girlfriend, your mistress, seducing you slowly and inevitably into religious ruin over weeks or months. It is only after the deed is done, after your perfect night of ultimate carnal fulfillment, that she announces your bargain is complete and your soul is forfeit.
Chances are, she won't even do the killing. Thats too undignified. While she was seducing you, she was seducing a powerful noble, or a pious monk, or whatever, and on your night of infinite pleasure, she left clues that will lead him to your bed, while she's still in it. He does the killing for her, and in the process, she gets two souls - yours for adultery, his for murder. Planned. Detailed. Promises made and kept. Verbal contracts fulfilled. Loopholes aplenty. The way of the devil.
I think, IMNSHO, that both creatures, succubi and erinyes, are perfectly designed for what they do and how they do it.
No changes needed, except for flavor, or for the suker punch to trick the players.
At least in this DM's/authors view of the cosmos.
OK so here I am think about how the succubus is such a "spell-happy" creature and being the fan I am of such creatures I was wondering if anyone on the boards could offer advice on a succubus that uses contact poisens to incite her prey and fog their minds instead of all the spell casting? I want to remove most of her spell like abilities and instead make her a more physical threat.
Just use a human rogue or rogue/fighter, maybe with assassin levels added, with high charisma (maybe half-fiend template) and a couple of extra abilities (i.e. shapechange). BAM!
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Definitely for the sucker punch, I still want her to be the seductress, using her charms to reek havoc on peoples lives before ultimatly destroying them. I'll probably have to go outside the rules a little to do my "poison" lady concept, as I don't want to turn her into a brute. Although I could argue that her CON could be higher, ya' just know succubi got possess increadable stamina! ;p. I'm gonna try to write it up this weekend if the kids give time to, maybe playtest "Lilly" with wife and see how she works out.
Definitely for the sucker punch, I still want her to be the seductress, using her charms to reek havoc on peoples lives before ultimatly destroying them. I'll probably have to go outside the rules a little to do my "poison" lady concept, as I don't want to turn her into a brute. Although I could argue that her CON could be higher, ya' just know succubi got possess increadable stamina! ;p. I'm gonna try to write it up this weekend if the kids give time to, maybe playtest "Lilly" with wife and see how she works out.
Give her spell-like ability, Poison. DC 10 + 1/2 caster level + casting ability score. It's listed as Wis since only divine have the spell, but for her it would be... Cha.
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Ok Blake, consider me hooked with a promise of purchasing your novel as soon as my BaM gets it in! :)
I'm not nescesarily looking to make my little Lilly more brutish or more direct, just for her seductive powers to work a little different, like her pheremones to incite those around her, her kiss functioning like a hyped up aphrodesiac luring her prey to what will be their most wonderfull and final intimate encounter. By using the poison succubi I hope to catch magic users off gaurd since it's no longer a contest of Wills, but instead how well the poor saps stamina can allow them to survive against her feindish appitites. She still is every bit the charming seductress using her natural pheremones to lure her prey. Once selected she begins destroying his/her (shes not picky about gender) life, disguising herself and seducing their loved ones to alienate him, etc. the whole time she has befriendedd them, seeming to be the perfect answer to their problems, luring him into carnal acts to "comfort" him her toxins reduce his will so that when she finally does reveal her true nature he can only whimper in ecstacy as she rips him limb from limb from (ouch) limb. If I have to boost her CON to do this I will but I would've rather kept the stats the same.
OK what do you guys think of Lilly now?
Sounds like extraordinary or supernatural copies of spells to me actually. Just discribe them differently than normal, fluff is the only real difference I'm seeing and fluff is always what you want it to be as a DM.
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Sounds like extraordinary or supernatural copies of spells to me actually. Just discribe them differently than normal, fluff is the only real difference I'm seeing and fluff is always what you want it to be as a DM.
Good point. Maybe I'm just over-anylizing her? Just drop some of her spell likes, and replace Will with Fort saves, Lilly will be just fine regardless I'm sure, she's a tricky little minx. ;p
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Whole lots of fun stuff
I LIKE IT!
Fits very much with what James Jacobs said once before about the roles of demons and devils and daemons.
The demons claim the souls through violence and betrayal.
Devils claim a soul through contracts and manipulation.
Daemons just eat the soul. *shudder*
Now, I want MORE info on Daemons, and I'd like more info on the celestials as well. So I think I will start a new topic for celestials so as not thread jack here! lol
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Oh, so now it's netherworld ethics, is it?
(long post, but I hope you find it entertaining)
First and foremost, demons are wild and chaotic. They believe in might makes right. They believe in dominating and controlling their enemies by brute force and savagery.
Devils are organized and methodical. They believe in order makes right. They love nothing more than to make a contract and fulfill it to the exact letter, knowing all the while that there is a glaring loophole that you were too inferior to recognize.
But the real question is what do both demons and devils want?
My answer, it's the same for both of them, is they want to grab souls of the departed and deny them their eternal peace, wherever that may be.
Why do they do that?
Well, someone's got to get them. There was a job opening in the Divine hierarchy, too demeaning for a god or demigod to fulfill, so demons, devils, angels, and archons were created.
What's that job?
Some souls just don't have eternal peace. Atheists. Unfaithful. Blasphemers. Etc.
Those souls aren't going on to happy, or unhappy places. No god has a claim on them. They are drifters. Celestial hobos.
So the gods created the demons, devils, angels, and archons to claim these souls.
Why?
To motivate the living to live right. Make a decision. No atheism or look at your horrible afterlife. Once you've made the decision, stick to it. No blasphemy. No hubris. No false faith. Or else.
But, some mortals didn't listen.
And the demons and devels, andgels and archons found out it was wonderful to claim a soul. What they did with these souls is for another time and place, but they all covet them, each for their own ends.
And once they learned to covet souls, they began scheming how to get more of them.
For devils, the choice was obvious. Temptation. Not just sexual temptation, but all kinds. Wealth. Power. Respect. Fame. Adulation. Love. Sex. Whatever.
So they tempt mortals. Offer bargains. You want to be rich? No problem. All you have to do is forsake Iomedae. She's not making you wealthy, is she? We can make you rich. Richer than even you can imagine. Just say these simple words: "I forsake Iomedae." and all that wealth is yours. I promise.
And devils keep their word. To the letter. Promise a man wealth, that man will get wealth. Too bad for him if he wasn't specific about how much, or how soon, or how long he holds it before it is taken from him, or who the wealth really belongs to, or any other loophole the devil thinks is funny at the time.
Sooner than he can imagine, that poor man has forsaken his goddess and is a free soul, ripe for the plucking.
It would be very helpful if he died very soon. If not, he may find absolution and return to Iomedae. Or maybe he'll find some other god. All that hard work will have been wasted.
So it's very likely that poor free soul will suffer a grave accident shortly after making his bargain.
And now the devil harvests the soul, happy as can be.
But what of demons?
They lie. They cheat. They would steal if they could, but they can't steal a soul from a god. So they trick mortals too.
But in the case of demons, they tempt them with lies. False contracts they never intend to fulfill - it's too much work to make the idiot rich. Just get him to sign and rip out his throat. Done.
Even better, get some other demon to do all the legwork and get the signature, then show up at the last second and harvest that soul, cheating the other demon out of it, without ever breaking a sweat.
But, demon or devil, they both tempt.
It's one thing to sniff out the people who are already lost. Find that atheist or that blasphemer, arrange an accident before he finds a religion, call it a good day's work.
But remember, they covet the souls.
Finding that rare needle in that haystack of fealtry and zealotry among feeble mortals all seeking a higher power to guide them is a long and thankless task.
Hence the temptation.
Lead the mortal astray. Don't wait to find what you can create with a little bit of temptation.
Which is why both sides have their temptress. Erinyes and Succubi. They provide one kind of temptation, the obvious one. Easy to lead astray a happily married mortal when they have those kinds of Charisma and perfect shapechange into any mortal they want. If that poor sap belongs to a faith that has no tolerance for adultery, well, then a little dalliance with either of these bat-winged ladies will expel him from the faith, and his soul will be ripe for the harvesting.
The succubus harvests through the kiss. The erinyes harvests with her blade or bow.
The succubus is more demonic than diabolic, for what she offers is not real. She offers her body, but each kiss is another step into the grave. If you don't comply, she takes it anyway with her domination.
There is no contract. No planning. No fulfilling of oaths. Just passion and betrayal and death. The way of the demon.
The erinyes gives you want you want. A night with a perfect body. Ultimate sex. Maybe she'll even be your girlfriend, your mistress, seducing you slowly and inevitably into religious ruin over weeks or months. It is only after the deed is done, after your perfect night of ultimate carnal fulfillment, that she announces your bargain is complete and your soul is forfeit.
Chances are, she won't even do the killing. Thats too undignified. While she was seducing you, she was seducing a powerful noble, or a pious monk, or whatever, and on your night of infinite pleasure, she left clues that will lead him to your bed, while she's still in it. He does the killing for her, and in the process, she gets two souls - yours for adultery, his for murder. Planned. Detailed. Promises made and kept. Verbal contracts fulfilled. Loopholes aplenty. The way of the devil.
I think, IMNSHO, that both creatures, succubi and erinyes, are perfectly designed for what they do and how they do it.
No changes needed, except for flavor, or for the suker punch to trick the players.
At least in this DM's/authors view of the cosmos.
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Ah but I see the succubus as the almost exeption to the rule. She does give you what you want, she wants it to after all, but she will destroy your entire life in the proscess and make you almost welcome the savage death she grants after her appitites have been fufilled. Mere rape is beneath her... unless of course she drives a pious man to attack her...she wants you to give yourself to her, forsaking everything for that kiss. She is almost devilish, IMO, in her behaivior.
Also, IMHO, a succubus is almost like a cat toying with her prey. She LIKES the hunt and the thrill of the chase. Watch a cat hunt and apply it to the succubus.
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Also, IMHO, a succubus is almost like a cat toying with her prey. She LIKES the hunt and the thrill of the chase. Watch a cat hunt and apply it to the succubus.
B-I-N-G-O! Gods forbid if you spurn her initial advances, it only makes thing worse for you, more fun for her maybe, but alot worse for you.
Also, IMHO, a succubus is almost like a cat toying with her prey. She LIKES the hunt and the thrill of the chase. Watch a cat hunt and apply it to the succubus.B-I-N-G-O! Gods forbid if you spurn her initial advances, it only makes thing worse for you, more fun for her maybe, but alot worse for you.
~bows~ Thank you! Thank you! I will be here until Thursday! Autographs are extra!
~GRINS~
Hell, think of Fatal Attraction (The movie). The main character is almost how I would portray a Succubus. Also, remember this, Succubus's are the ultimate Hedonists. They also live for pleasure. The more dark and perverted, the better.
Ok now I'm worried... I might be a succubus....make that an incubuss
~laughter~ Pervert. ~listens~ Hey now. Stop saying "pot meet kettle!"
Ok now I'm worried... I might be a succubus....make that an incubuss~laughter~ Pervert. ~listens~ Hey now. Stop saying "pot meet kettle!"
Have you been being a bad dragon again? ;)
Have you been being a bad dragon again? ;)Ok now I'm worried... I might be a succubus....make that an incubuss~laughter~ Pervert. ~listens~ Hey now. Stop saying "pot meet kettle!"
~gives an innocent look while my foot scratches a hole in the floor~ Yes teacher. I am sorry. Does this mean I get detention?
~gives an innocent look while my foot scratches a hole in the floor~ Yes teacher. I am sorry. Does this mean I get detention?Have you been being a bad dragon again? ;)Ok now I'm worried... I might be a succubus....make that an incubuss~laughter~ Pervert. ~listens~ Hey now. Stop saying "pot meet kettle!"
Oh, you'd like that wouldn't you. Well, I suppose...:)
Oh, you'd like that wouldn't you. Well, I suppose...:)~gives an innocent look while my foot scratches a hole in the floor~ Yes teacher. I am sorry. Does this mean I get detention?Have you been being a bad dragon again? ;)Ok now I'm worried... I might be a succubus....make that an incubuss~laughter~ Pervert. ~listens~ Hey now. Stop saying "pot meet kettle!"
~grins~ Wouldn't your Hubby get just a little bit upset that you put me in detention instead of him? ~RUNS~
~grins~ Wouldn't your Hubby get just a little bit upset that you put me in detention instead of him? ~RUNS~
Silly dragon, I never said *I* was going to be the one administering your detention. *grin*
:O...... oooooo I'm tellin' on you guys. ;p
Hmm, a tattletale. I guess you want to go to detention too? Helga will be so happy. She's been bored. ;)
:O...... oooooo I'm tellin' on you guys. ;pHmm, a tattletale. I guess you want to go to detention too? Helga will be so happy. She's been bored. ;)
~winces~ Ah crap! Helga? ~sighs and looks at my hoard~ Ok. What will it take to buy off the detention? Helga is just plain MEAN!!!
~winces~ Ah crap! Helga? ~sighs and looks at my hoard~ Ok. What will it take to buy off the detention? Helga is just plain MEAN!!!:O...... oooooo I'm tellin' on you guys. ;pHmm, a tattletale. I guess you want to go to detention too? Helga will be so happy. She's been bored. ;)
Well you know what they say, diamonds are a girl's best friend. :)
Well you know what they say, diamonds are a girl's best friend. :)~winces~ Ah crap! Helga? ~sighs and looks at my hoard~ Ok. What will it take to buy off the detention? Helga is just plain MEAN!!!:O...... oooooo I'm tellin' on you guys. ;pHmm, a tattletale. I guess you want to go to detention too? Helga will be so happy. She's been bored. ;)
~winces again and then cries~ Blackmailer! ~cries some more~ My beautiful hoard, with everything placed to maximize it's beauty! You will be missed, oh lovely 150 carat diamonds! ~I pick two big diamonds out of my hoard~ Is this enough, blackmailer? ~tears running down my Draconic face~
~winces again and then cries~ Blackmailer! ~cries some more~ My beautiful hoard, with everything placed to maximize it's beauty! You will be missed, oh lovely 150 carat diamonds! ~I pick two big diamonds out of my hoard~ Is this enough, blackmailer? ~tears running down my Draconic face~Well you know what they say, diamonds are a girl's best friend. :)~winces~ Ah crap! Helga? ~sighs and looks at my hoard~ Ok. What will it take to buy off the detention? Helga is just plain MEAN!!!:O...... oooooo I'm tellin' on you guys. ;pHmm, a tattletale. I guess you want to go to detention too? Helga will be so happy. She's been bored. ;)
Oh, now, there, there. Don't cry. I was thinking something a bit more, ummm, portable. Just little ones. You'll barely miss them. They're not for me. They're for Helga. She gets so disappointed when she has no one to torture and we don't want Helga to be in a bad mood, do we?
Oh, now, there, there. Don't cry. I was thinking something a bit more, ummm, portable. Just little ones. You'll barely miss them.~winces again and then cries~ Blackmailer! ~cries some more~ My beautiful hoard, with everything placed to maximize it's beauty! You will be missed, oh lovely 150 carat diamonds! ~I pick two big diamonds out of my hoard~ Is this enough, blackmailer? ~tears running down my Draconic face~Well you know what they say, diamonds are a girl's best friend. :)~winces~ Ah crap! Helga? ~sighs and looks at my hoard~ Ok. What will it take to buy off the detention? Helga is just plain MEAN!!!:O...... oooooo I'm tellin' on you guys. ;pHmm, a tattletale. I guess you want to go to detention too? Helga will be so happy. She's been bored. ;)
~sighs bitterly~ I would miss a single copper if it was removed from my hoard. ~sighs again~ Ok. Here you go. ~I snag a beautiful blue velvet bag tied shut with a platinum rope~ This should be enough for you, Blackmailer! ~I then hand it to you~
~sighs bitterly~ I would miss a single copper if it was removed from my hoard. ~sighs again~ Ok. Here you go. ~I snag a beautiful blue velvet bag tied shut with a platinum rope~ This should be enough for you, Blackmailer! ~I then hand it to you~
Thank you muchly. *cheerful grin* I promise this is going to a really good cause.
*waltzes out*