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I just got through reading The Great Beyond, A Guide to the Multiverse, and let me just say that it exceeded my expectations. Absolutely inspired, and an equal of even the finest Planescape products.
*glee* I truly don't deserve to be compared to the back-in-the-day Planescape material. But I'm seriously -seriously- flattered and giddy that I've made at least one person happy with what I wrote. I put a lot of work into TGB, even took it with me to the beach over Thanksgiving to finish up some of it (laptop, black russian to sip, Marco Island Florida = awesome).
Most of the editorial type of content was pretty open for me to explore and hash out as I wanted, outside of the initial planar setup, and one or two things I got overruled on (all of which were quite frankly, pretty minor affairs). I'll answer any questions you've got on the content, origin of the ideas, etc. :)
That said, I have one big question about the size of the Great Beyond. Namely, why did the creators decide to make the Outer Planes finite? I understand that they are, for all intents and purposes, so-big-as-to-be-effectively-infinite, but the decision to put an actual size restriction on them struck me as odd. After all, wouldn't the planes eventually "fill up" with souls, given enough time?
This leads to my second question; just how large is the plane of Axis? Is the map on page 31 a scaled representation of the place, or merely a symbolic one? I sort of took it as symbolic, and picture Axis as a planet-sized city, on par with the other planes.
The idea that the planes were finite, just insanely large to make it effectively a moot point was (as I recall) something already in place. I'm pretty sure however that I went out of my way to state that the Maelstrom by comparison was infinite, and that the other planes could and in some cases actively were expanding their borders by growing into and effectively converting the Maelstrom (something the Proteans regard with horror and rage).
The map of Axis, and indeed all the maps, are symbolic and relative in nature. Objects not drawn to scale. Especially on some of the chaotic planes, objects may not always exist with the same distances between them, making any attempt at defined mapping an exercise in frustration.
Lastly, a question that has already been asked and discussed, but that I don't think is adequately answered; once on the outer planes, can you eventually reach any of them just by walking/riding? I understand that the planes are bordered by the Maelstrom in a kind of no-man's land. So, if someone started walking from Axis, and slogged through the Maelstrom, could they reach Hell? In the same spirit, could you fly skyward on a given plane and eventually enter the Astral?
Yes. And distances between planes of similar alignment will tend to be closer to one another by transit through the Maelstrom or Maelstrom borderlands than planes that different in their alignment. Easier to walk from Heaven to Hell than from Heaven to Abaddon. But the Maelstrom doesn't like to obey rules, and so distances and transit time may be dramatically different for people if they get seperated, leave at different times, etc. At the moment there aren't any rules or guidelines with regards to physically traversing from one plane to another via the borderlands or Maelstrom proper, but eventually I figure it's worth a shot putting some guidelines in place.
As for the Astral. In theory you can fly upwards and reach the Astral, but normally physical transit through the Astral is different from actually getting anywhere once you're there. And there's also the (for lack of a better term) turbulence in the fabric of the Astral as it approaches the Outer Sphere. The currents and eddies caused by the proximity of the Maelstrom and the tidal influence of the River of Souls may have implications for flying up from one of planes of the Outer Sphere and getting into the Astral physically. Probably easier and safer to planeshift, etc. Again, no defined rules on this (yet at least).
I am curious, however, about Alazhra the Dream Eater. I know she was mostly cut, but the dream eating title alone has definitely piqued my interest. Kinda reminds me of the traditional Medieval depiction of hags, all sitting on people's chests during nightmares and stuff.
The name was intentionally meant to evoke the dream eating aspect of Night Hags that I've always felt was lost somewhat by putting them as Gray Waste natives (making them travel literally across the multiverse to ethereal jaunt and play around in dreamscapes). It's also why I put the Night Hags as natives of the ethereal instead of second-class fiends in the Outer Planes/Sphere.
Alazhra herself was modeled very closely after Alazhra the Dream Eater, one of the 13 baernaloths of The Demented from my home Planescape campaign. She appears in a few of my stories online, and in the story 'The Dreamer and the Fiend' in the Knowledge Arcana fanzine (when it was hosted on the WotC boards, not during the period since when the name was hijacked and it pretty much vanished).
However the Golarion goddess/thing/entity is intended to be much less defined, and considerably more lovecraftian horror sort of being whose patronage of the hags probably borders less on deity/worshipper and more on Rovagug sort of horror/hags who don't truly understand the nature of the thing they propitiate. I think somewhere I might have compared her and Rovagug as similar in some ways, but she's much more distant by comparison.
Mindful, not all of this may have made it into print, and canon and such. But use as you will.
Oh, and can demiplanes form on any plane, or only on the Astral/Ethereal? I got the feeling, for example, that Rovagug's prison was a Material Plane demiplane.
They're just most commonly found in the Astral and Ethereal, where local conditions tends to be rife for their creation naturally. But really it's just a catchall term that can encompass different origins - either arising from raw potential in the ethereal where positive and negative muddy the metaphysical waters so to speak, or in the astral where the presence of the currents from the River of Souls and the proximity of the Maelstrom warp space in on itself, forming them, or simply cases where deific or magical power is used to force their creation.
I put a lot of work into TGB, even took it with me to the beach over Thanksgiving to finish up some of it (laptop, black russian to sip,
This explains SO much. ;)
Alazhra herself was modeled very closely after Alazhra the Dream Eater, one of the 13 baernaloths of The Demented from my home Planescape campaign. She appears in a few of my stories online, and in the story 'The Dreamer and the Fiend' in the Knowledge Arcana fanzine (when it was hosted on the WotC boards, not during the period since when the name was hijacked and it pretty much vanished).
I did a bloodwar mini-campaign a few years ago based on those online stories and the planescape blood war boxed set. One of the best campaigns I've ever run!
I put a lot of work into TGB, even took it with me to the beach over Thanksgiving to finish up some of it (laptop, black russian to sip,This explains SO much. ;)
*scoff!* :)
It was the beach and liquor or stay in the beachfront condo where they were stripping and replacing the roof since it was offseason. ;)
I did a bloodwar mini-campaign a few years ago based on those online stories and the planescape blood war boxed set. One of the best campaigns I've ever run!
*blink* You just made my day. :)
Kinda reminds me of the traditional Medieval depiction of hags, all sitting on people's chests during nightmares and stuff.
I think that was elves. Therefore the German word for Nightmare - Alptraum, deriving from Alpdruck, i.e. Elfdruck (elf pressure).
I think that was elves. Therefore the German word for Nightmare - Alptraum, deriving from Alpdruck, i.e. Elfdruck (elf pressure).
Kinda reminds me of the traditional Medieval depiction of hags, all sitting on people's chests during nightmares and stuff.
It's also one of the myths involving the succubus.
Kinda reminds me of the traditional Medieval depiction of hags, all sitting on people's chests during nightmares and stuff.
Huh. And that reminds me of some of those famous Goya prints...and my ex. <rimshot>
Huh. And that reminds me of some of those famous Goya prints...and my ex. <rimshot>
Kinda reminds me of the traditional Medieval depiction of hags, all sitting on people's chests during nightmares and stuff.
Goya's Black Period paintings are disturbing and amazing.
A great resource for role-playing!
It's also one of the myths involving the succubus.
I always forget that one. Probably that's mainly because the other one is so much more interesting.
The X-Files went more along that road when they had their succubus, though.
But that's the problem really: sometimes, people aren't too keen on naming conventions. Some mythological creatures go by many names, and some names have been used for many creatures. And it's all a huge mix.
I think that was elves. Therefore the German word for Nightmare - Alptraum, deriving from Alpdruck, i.e. Elfdruck (elf pressure).
Kinda reminds me of the traditional Medieval depiction of hags, all sitting on people's chests during nightmares and stuff.
It's actually common across all cultures. I'll refer you to the wikipedia article on Sleep Paralysis, or more specifically, Hypnagogia.
The folklore portion of the wiki article is especially good. In any event, sleep paralysis is a horrifying experience, and if you are not inclined to believe in the supernatural, it can certainly force you to reconsider, at least until you've had coffee. If I go the rest of my life without experiencing hypnagogia again, I'll die a happy man.
Hm.. nowadays, we don't have any more elves for that.
We have alien abductors with paralysis rays.
Seriously. There was a study one time that concluded that 1 in 4 people had alien abduction experiences. Turns out that they drew the wrong conclusions. They asked if people experienced situations where they lay in bed, unable to move, and with the overwhelming feeling someone - or something - else is in the room.
Of course, a lot of people have felt that way, since it is typical if there is a glitch in sleep paralysis. I know I had the feeling occasionally, being convinced that some beast or intruder is in the room, but unable to move. Always a nasty thing.
But the researchers concluded that these people were abducted, or claimed to have been abducted, by aliens.
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Of course, aliens being entities possessing incredibly advanced technology and/or biology, they could devise a sleep paralysis ray or have evolved some kind of psionic power that would act as some kind of hold person...
I'd like to be the optimist and think that all these occurences of "sleep paralysis" could be due to a naturally occuring human biologic process... but hey: if they can come to our world, crossing lightyears of space-time in mere minutes/hours/days, then... who's to say Cartman doesn't *really* have folding satellite dish up his butt?
:P
I just got through reading The Great Beyond, A Guide to the Multiverse, and let me just say that it exceeded my expectations. Absolutely inspired, and an equal of even the finest Planescape products.*glee* I truly don't deserve to be compared to the back-in-the-day Planescape material. But I'm seriously -seriously- flattered and giddy that I've made at least one person happy with what I wrote. I put a lot of work into TGB, even took it with me to the beach over Thanksgiving to finish up some of it (laptop, black russian to sip, Marco Island Florida = awesome).
I just received my copy Of "The great beyond" and I must say excellant job Todd. I am enjoying the hell out of it.
I'd like to be the optimist and think that all these occurences of "sleep paralysis" could be due to a naturally occuring human biologic process... but hey: if they can come to our world, crossing lightyears of space-time in mere minutes/hours/days, then...
Always assuming that there are aliens to begin with. And that they're coming here. On a stroll (rather than spending millenia for the trip). And in secret instead of openly. And that their technology is equally advanced in all sectors, not just space travel (maybe they just have a knack or stumbled upon a shortcut). And that they know enough about earthly creatures to devise something as SP guns.
A lot of assumptions there. I think the safer bet is that it's really all natural.
I mean, yes: the universe is big. Really big. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is life - civilised life, more advanced then us - somewhere else (in fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't.) But have we ever met?
I mean, either they're hiding pretty well (and I don't see why and how. Doesn't make sense. Are they childish? Like cloak and dagger? Do they know cloaks? Or daggers? They probably wouldn't have anything to fear from us, so why do they hide?), or they're really, really far away.
And considering that according to current knowledge of how things work, faster-than-light travel is practically impossible, it would probably take quite a bit of tech to span the vast gulf that is space. I'm not discounting it out of hand (I mean, I have done stuff that people in the past would have considered impossible. Lots of time. And I mean today), but I don't accept it as a given, either.
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What can I tell you? I "want" to believe! :)
Otherwise our universal prospects are grim, as it can get lonely out there, in outer space. Or shall I say, The Great Beyond? :P
Outer space. That reminds me... I'm out to see Star Trek tonight. Sweet.
However, to come back to your point on aliens coming here in secret... what can I say other than the fact that this possibility has been explored countless times by various sci-fi authors. The principle behind secret visits (the day after tomorrow is a great example, movie-wise) is that since we are such an inferior species on an evolutionary scale, it is more ethically correct for the alien civilization to merely observe and let us follow our natural course. Just like wildlife biologists prefer to observe animals from a distance and not disturb their habitat.
To intervene, and "domesticate" us either into a slave race or grant us tools and technology we cannot comprehend could be disastrous.
Look at humans now. Look at our global status. Third-world countries with dictatorship trying to acquire nukes at all cost despite the fact that their population has nothing to eat. Humans have a long way to go. Humans are brutal. Aliens would gain nothing in making themselves known at this point of our evolution, and humans would have everything to lose by meeting them, as a lot of nuts would propel our world into more bloodshed.
Happy mothers' day by the way! :P
In any event, sleep paralysis is a horrifying experience...Oddly enough, I once intentionally subjected myself to sleep paralysis.
The first time I experienced sleep paralysis, I had taken a mid-afternoon nap and woken up, temporarily paralyzed, in a bizarre position. So, as an experiment, I took another nap at the same time of day the next day, and tried to emulate the position I'd fallen asleep in the previous day. Sure enough, I experienced sleep paralysis a second time.
I think I've had over a hundred episodes over the last 9 or so years, most of them clustered around a 2 year stretch after college when I was working rather odd hours (6p-2a on weekdays and 11p - 7a on weekends).
Occasionally, I have one due to sleeping in some awkward position, usually with my arms crossed in front of my chest and hands firmly wrapped under arm, but those tend to be different in someways, such as almost being able to "speak" in the dream during the episode, whereas the "regular" episodes are characterized by total paralysis with speaking not even being an option.
One of the more interesting take aways for me is that I cannot recall ever feeling anything remotely near the level of abject terror I experience during sleep paralysis. It really puts ordinary anxiety and perfectly normal paranoia into context.
What can I tell you? I "want" to believe! :)
There's that. And there's "I wear a tinfoil hat" :P
Otherwise our universal prospects are grim, as it can get lonely out there, in outer space. Or shall I say, The Great Beyond? :P
So I get it you don't get along with humans, eh? Otherwise you wouldn't call 6 billion other people to talk to lonely :P
Sooner or later, we'll have to colonise other planets in other solar systems. We'll always have each other, even if it turns out we're alone in the universe (or in the part of the universe we can reach.)
The principle behind secret visits (the day after tomorrow is a great example, movie-wise) is that since we are such an inferior species on an evolutionary scale, it is more ethically correct for the alien civilization to merely observe and let us follow our natural course.
I don't know. Those bastards see that millions, if not billions, go hungry, and they don't offer us their replicators? We stink up the planet because we have to fight against ourselves to find better fuel sources, and the cheap tossers deny us their cold fusion?
They're no better than us if you ask me. Worse, in fact, because what for us would be a hard struggle (which hurts the planet as much as ourselves) is the wave of a hand to them.
Just like wildlife biologists prefer to observe animals from a distance and not disturb their habitat.
We're not wildlife. Should technologically advanced and richer nations refuse to help those not as far as we?
Look at humans now. Look at our global status. Third-world countries with dictatorship trying to acquire nukes at all cost despite the fact that their population has nothing to eat. Humans have a long way to go. Humans are brutal. Aliens would gain nothing in making themselves known at this point of our evolution, and humans would have everything to lose by meeting them, as a lot of nuts would propel our world into more bloodshed.
Again, not entirely true. There are mediators on earth, too.
Plus, they don't have to give us Planetary Exterminators. They can start with benevolent things.
One more thing: Humans are violent, yes. Humans go to war. Because it works. Conflicts are nature to, well, nature, as are violent solutions. It's evolution. It's hard to fight evolution.
Would aliens be any different?
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>One more thing: Humans are violent, yes. Humans go to war. Because it
>works. Conflicts are nature to, well, nature, as are violent solutions.
>It's evolution. It's hard to fight evolution.
>
>Would aliens be any different?
Logic dictates that yes, they would be different. As a sentient species evolve and their technology with it, the means to destroy their home world would have increased along with them (e.g. we have nukes, so advanced aliens would be able to have super nukes or black hole generators that can swallow whole planets, etc.)
When the danger to eradicate not only your enemy but yourself at the same time arise, you get a deterrence effect that basically stops both parties from using that super exterminating tech in the first place, which is followed by diplomacy and disarmament.
The more deadly your tech is, the greater the emphasis on diplomacy becomes.
So with advanced aliens who could hypothetically wipe out each other's planet in one fell swoop, then yes, I surmise that their species would have evolved towards a greater emphasis on diplomacy than violence.
When the danger to eradicate not only your enemy but yourself at the same time arise, you get a deterrence effect that basically stops both parties from using that super exterminating tech in the first place, which is followed by diplomacy and disarmament.
Terrorists who believe in a reward for martyrdom say otherwise.
Either that, or they saw the problem early and devoted some energy towards precision :P
(1) We all know that these "aliens" are a bunch of Mi-Go messing with us, so let's just acknowledge the madness and horror of The Truth right now.
(2) I'd never want this Sleep Paralysis thing. Sounds awful.
And to get back on topic...
(3) One of the things that always bothered me about Planscape was that, despite claiming infinite outer planes, there was all this interesting stuff about taking bits from other planes and plots to shift this place over to that plane and all ... but, against an INFINITE backdrop, it didn't seem to matter. For all the "chant" that things change quickly on the planes, they seemed set up to endure forever in a bit of stasis.
With /The Great Beyond/ it seems we've got huge, but finite, planes that have every incentive in the mulitiverse to harvest souls and grow. If you couple author's concept of ballooning out into the malestrom with the idea of actively ripping off bits of other planes, you've got the fixin's for a really dynamic planar set. This might already be mentioned in the book, which I don't have - /yet/.
With /The Great Beyond/ it seems we've got huge, but finite, planes that have every incentive in the mulitiverse to harvest souls and grow. If you couple author's concept of ballooning out into the malestrom with the idea of actively ripping off bits of other planes, you've got the fixin's for a really dynamic planar set. This might already be mentioned in the book, which I don't have - /yet/.
That was the intention. There isn't anything quite so monolithic as the Great Wheel's Blood War between the fiends, but in the Great Beyond, the conflicts are much more spread out and frequent, with enemies sometimes sharing goals in other areas (see demons and archons potentially helping each other fight astradaemons in the Astral to protect their rightful share of souls).
Hell, Axis, and Heaven war against the Maelstrom. The Abyss rages against pretty much everything. The Maelstrom rages against the lawful planes, but tends to leave Elysium alone as far as violence goes, but it goes after the Abyss with perhaps even more fury than it pushes towards Axis.
There's a lot more actively going on with the Chaos/Law axis in Golarion's cosmology as well as the Good/Evil axis versus the Great Wheel that was mostly Evil eating itself over Law/Chaos, and a polite, cold war among the celestials at times.
Thanks for the validation Todd ... and if somebody really wanted a blood war, I suppose one could always pick two (or three) planes and start one! <Rubs hands together.> This all sounds like a LOT of fun.
(2) I'd never want this Sleep Paralysis thing. Sounds awful.
Oh yes, it is. Consider this: You wake up, but not quite. You're still half asleep. And, like in some of those nightmares, you cannot move, but somehow know you're actually awake. And you're convinced you're not alone in the room (and I don't mean your partner lying beside you, if any. I mean someone - or something - that doesn't belong there).
The glitch only takes a moment or two to go away, and with it the immediate feeling of not being alone, but it can rattle you.
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I remember the first time it happened to me as a teenager... that freaked me out pretty solid! Doesn't happen to me anymore, mainly because my days of partying are long past... (and sleep paralysis usually happened about half an hour after I've gone to bed anywhere between 3 and 5am, after a long night of partying - beer, loud music, etc.)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Todd I just ordered TGB today and am eagerly awaiting it! As a fellow fan and graybearded blood what kind of coverage do you have on the Plane of Shadow? I'm in the midst of setting up a campaign set in Balefire (Dragon #322) and wonder how I can connect the City of Lanterns to Golarion. Is it as much a transitive as it was in 3e or is it more of a bit player like it was in the older editions? I've heard mention of Shadow Absalom but am keen to find out more... I do have something like 5 to 7 business days to wait!
--Detroit Vrock City!
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I've got a ton of questions I actually kind of don't want solid answers for. But there are a few that I would kind of like to see touched on a little bit more. Maybe. I'm not sure! (so what follows is gushing that may or may not be raising real questions)
Just got the book, haven't fully digested it yet, but I'm loving it so far.
I love that it seems to know when not to give answers(the bit about no one quite knowing what happens to souls that eventually disappear and the possibility of them moving on to other "strange vistas" works perfectly for the way I'm running Golarion) as well as the throw-away names that don't have any real explanation that I've seen, but certainly get my imagination running. My particular favorites so far are Orobouros Valley and Rahotep, Pharaoh of Tomorrow. The former is already starting to take on a lot of importance in my personal Golarion cosmology.
I just realized this, but the location of Calistria's domain seems to imply that there are succubi running around Elysium. Granted, they're likely different from the vanilla Abyssal kind, but there are succubi kicking around in a plane of good! Not complaining, it just kind of brings out the fact that these planes really are their own animal compared to the Great Wheel.
I'm probably reading too much into it, but I also REALLY geeked out at the notion of Nirvana having a sort of good-aligned Silent Hill located in it. The idea of that island serving as a crucible for the penitent wicked(heck, maybe even the rare fiend) really appeals to me; a place where the only danger and misery present is what you take with you, and you can't leave until you work through it.
Also, azatas. I'm guessing this is going to be replacing the "eladrin" term? Or is does the word span more widely than that? I noticed the lillendi were identified as azata, which had me wondering about the latter.
And as much as I liked the slaad(especially Xanxost), the keketars make me smile every time I see them. There's something about those open, toothy maws that makes me imagine them screaming non-sequitors and generally unnerving their enemies with crazy.(though I do realize they don't really fall under the LOL RANDOM CN stereotype)
So yeah, good book!
Todd I just ordered TGB today and am eagerly awaiting it! As a fellow fan and graybearded blood what kind of coverage do you have on the Plane of Shadow? I'm in the midst of setting up a campaign set in Balefire (Dragon #322) and wonder how I can connect the City of Lanterns to Golarion. Is it as much a transitive as it was in 3e or is it more of a bit player like it was in the older editions? I've heard mention of Shadow Absalom but am keen to find out more... I do have something like 5 to 7 business days to wait!
--Detroit Vrock City!
I liked Balefire as well. Golarion's Plane of Shadow isn't a bit player unless you want it to be so. There's a lot going on there, and it's not simply 'that dark and spooky place you can use to go other places faster'. It's a warped reflection, or perhaps attempted recreation of the prime, tainted by its paradoxical, creative origin with the Negative Energy Plane.
You could probably use Balefire as a city that exists on its own without a reflection on the prime, with a history like its original one in Dragon mag, or possibly as a city started by the D'ziriak* as a trading hub with non-natives
*think intelligent firefly/termite/insect natives of Shadow who aren't exactly evil, nor exactly good
I love that it seems to know when not to give answers(the bit about no one quite knowing what happens to souls that eventually disappear and the possibility of them moving on to other "strange vistas" works perfectly for the way I'm running Golarion) as well as the throw-away names that don't have any real explanation that I've seen, but certainly get my imagination running. My particular favorites so far are Orobouros Valley and Rahotep, Pharaoh of Tomorrow. The former is already starting to take on a lot of importance in my personal Golarion cosmology.
That's just my style there. I like open mysteries, and I like enigmatic and possibly uncertain and conflicting answers on some topics as well. I also like tossing out throw-away names as plot hooks or DM mental candy for people to snatch upon and develop in their own way.
And if you haven't noticed it yet, while the Orobouros Valley only appears in TGB as a name on the map of the Maelstrom, it shows up again with some details in the Ecology of the Protean in PF#22. :)
I just realized this, but the location of Calistria's domain seems to imply that there are succubi running around Elysium. Granted, they're likely different from the vanilla Abyssal kind, but there are succubi kicking around in a plane of good! Not complaining, it just kind of brings out the fact that these planes really are their own animal compared to the Great Wheel.
Gods have a bit more sway at times in Golarion's cosmology versus the classical Planescape idea, and even the dynamic I tend to use in some of my fiction. Calistria's servitors are likely rather different, but still, their interaction with the azata likely something to be rather interesting for all involved.
I'm probably reading too much into it, but I also REALLY geeked out at the notion of Nirvana having a sort of good-aligned Silent Hill located in it. The idea of that island serving as a crucible for the penitent wicked(heck, maybe even the rare fiend) really appeals to me; a place where the only danger and misery present is what you take with you, and you can't leave until you work through it.
*GRIN* I love your characterization of that particular location. That was the intention. Think of sin or evil not being a taint or corruption to be healed by some outside judging force (like that frankly evil BoED forced redemption spell), but it being a willing condition you have to solve for yourself if you truly want to reform. No one can redeem you but yourself, and it will be painful, only because your desire for redemption may involve travelling through and recognizing a hell of your own making for what it is before you can transcend it. The plane will forgive you. The plane will accept you. But you have to do the same for yourself first, and it may not be a pleasant process.
Also, azatas. I'm guessing this is going to be replacing the "eladrin" term? Or is does the word span more widely than that? I noticed the lillendi were identified as azata, which had me wondering about the latter.
And as much as I liked the slaad(especially Xanxost), the keketars make me smile every time I see them. There's...
Yes, azata is a replacement term for eladrin, more or less. Lillendi are their own race however, and I wouldn't group them with the more fey-like azata.
I like the keketars. You'll see more of them, and the other proteans in PF#22, and also elsewhere in due time.
OT on the Eladrin
I like the keketars. You'll see more of them, and the other proteans in PF#22, and also elsewhere in due time.So, can we then surmise that they might be in the Beastiary?
I suspect that the bestiary will have representatives of outsiders and outsider groups for each alignment that has them. The slaadi are gone, so their place has to be filled.
I like the keketars. You'll see more of them, and the other proteans in PF#22, and also elsewhere in due time.So, can we then surmise that they might be in the Beastiary?
That would be awesome, but honestly I have no idea if they, or any azatas, or the vulpinal, or various daemons, or axiomites will appear in the PF Bestiary.
The elsewhere I mentioned will be an article in KQ.
Also, azatas. I'm guessing this is going to be replacing the "eladrin" term?
Yes. Strangely, while bralani, ghaele, and so on are all Open names, the group name "eladrin" is not, so we went to Earth mythology to find a new name for them (azata).
Lillendi are their own race however, and I wouldn't group them with the more fey-like azata.
They're all elf-like CG outsiders, lillends actually fit nicely into that group. If lillends were NG I could see them fitting more with the animal-like agathions (f.k.a guardinals), but their CG alignment and role as sponsors and defenders of artists (which is an aspect of freedom) puts them more closely related to azatas.
Creative Director
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Also, azatas. I'm guessing this is going to be replacing the "eladrin" term?Yes. Strangely, while bralani, ghaele, and so on are all Open names, the group name "eladrin" is not, so we went to Earth mythology to find a new name for them (azata).
Lillendi are their own race however, and I wouldn't group them with the more fey-like azata.They're all elf-like CG outsiders, lillends actually fit nicely into that group. If lillends were NG I could see them fitting more with the animal-like agathions (f.k.a guardinals), but their CG alignment and role as sponsors and defenders of artists (which is an aspect of freedom) puts them more closely related to azatas.
Yeah; lillends fit very well into the azata category... especially since we can't really use any of the Planescape-specific flavor that they've carried with them. Azatas they are! :-)
They're all elf-like CG outsiders, lillends actually fit nicely into that group. If lillends were NG I could see them fitting more with the animal-like agathions (f.k.a guardinals), but their CG alignment and role as sponsors and defenders of artists (which is an aspect of freedom) puts them more closely related to azatas.
*ponder* Very true. You've sold me on the idea. :)
That said, it's probably better/cleaner for one family of outsiders native to Elysium rather than multiple ones.
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Yeah, thanks for the clarification guys!
Man, I'm so proud I was on target with that island. :D
Another throwaway name that's sticking with me, The Home of ______ the Heartbroken in Elysium. I'm loving the idea that the good planes aren't necessarily "good times and shiny-happy all the time" even without counting outside interference from the Maelstrom or elsewhere(though they're still kick-ass places for your characters to go when they finally kick the bucket).
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*ponder* Very true. You've sold me on the idea. :)
That said, it's probably better/cleaner for one family of outsiders native to Elysium rather than multiple ones.
Now if we could just get the LN outsiders similarly streamlined. Axiomites, ant-Formians, wasp-Formians, Inevitables (constructs, but still natives of Axis)... and all those other options from 3e.
I've always thought it a bit funny that CN has always had just one family of exemplar outsiders, while LN has always had multiple ones (well, since 2e, or was there something else in 1e besides the modrons?)
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Much of the CN races (giths, slaadi) went out of the window due to being WotC IP. I wouldn't mind another CN iconic outsider group, tho.
Yes, but the githzerai weren't innate natives of the CN outer plane the way the Slaadi or now the Proteans are/were. I suppose one might make the case that the formians aren't truly LN outer plane natives either, but still, you hear more about different races from Mechanus or Axis than you ever did about Limbo/the Maelstrom.
Well, the axiomites *created* the inevitables, so that's one reason why the LNs have multiples and CNs just have the proteans. If by "just" you mean "at least three known types of shapeshifting weirdos."
I suppose one might make the case that the formians aren't truly LN outer plane natives either, but still, you hear more about different races from Mechanus or Axis than you ever did about Limbo/the Maelstrom.
Yep, the Planescape formians weren't true natives of Mechanus (since they originated on Arcadia). However for the Axian formians, good question, and it's not something that has been addressed yet. The axiomites are true natives of Axis, and they created the inevitables, but the formians you could go multiple ways with. I'd be pleased as punch to explore that at some point (I have a couple ideas on their relation to Axis and their origins), but I'd also eagerly look forward to someone else doing the same.
As for the proteans though, yes, on the surface it seems like the Maelstrom has fewer true natives than its LN counterpart. But for an analogy, look at the Maelstrom like a living thing, and the proteans as an analog of its own immune response to an infection of Law (represented by Axis, Heaven, and Hell). Upon exposure to Law, the Maelstrom violently reacted, and while originally there might have been innumerable types and sorts of natives (immature B cells in this analogy) the proteans would be the result of activated B cells reproducing and churning out antibodies specific to that infection. Time goes on, and in the face of continued exposure to Law, the immune/protean response increases and begins to proportionately dominate the other non-active B cells if you take a snapshot of the populations. If not for Axis and the other lawful planes, the Maelstrom would probably be much more diverse in terms of major natives races than it would otherwise be, geared towards opposition to an opposing force/alignment.
My God that's nerdy. But it's an analogy that I think works.
And if the Maelstrom is only a localized branch of something deeper and more primal as has been hinted, other branches might be populated by different sorts of natives.