Hey all! I have a group of friends who have expressed interest in playing through the Second Darkness AP after the game we were doing before got sidelined due to two members of the party moving away. This will be my second time GMing a game, and my first time doing so in a more traditional d20 system; the previous game I ran was a Heroes Unlimited campaign. I had seven players in that one and I was hoping that I would end up with a more traditional party for this one, but it seems that that is not to be. I've had six people tell me that they will pretty much definitely be playing in this campaign, with a seventh potential player - though honestly, I doubt the seventh one will pan out.
My question to all the other GMs out there is this: If you're running a pre-set AP like Second Darkness, designed with four players in mind, what modifications do you make to the encounters and other campaign scenarios to make it more of a challenge to the PCs aside from just adding more bad guys to an encounter or uping the HP total of the BBEG from each part? I know that I could easily do either of those things, but I'd like to see what else can be done to balance the campaign when there's a PC surplus to take into account. Thanks all!
My question to all the other GMs out there is this: If you're running a pre-set AP like Second Darkness, designed with four players in mind, what modifications do you make to the encounters and other campaign scenarios to make it more of a challenge to the PCs aside from just adding more bad guys to an encounter or uping the HP total of the BBEG from each part?
I would do the above, but an alternative I can think of is to simply make the PC's weaker. Consider reducing their gold rewards down (don't forget though that they'll get less individually anyway, since there's more PC's in the party). Or lower the extra hit points they receive when leveling up, thus making them more vulnerable in combat.
A last thought is to encourage less combat orientated classes. Such as the bard class. The bard is useful at times, but is underpowered in combats. As such, it will encourage roleplaying without heavily influencing the encounters.Just my 2 cents.
I would do the above, but an alternative I can think of is to simply make the PC's weaker. Consider reducing their gold rewards down (don't forget though that they'll get less individually anyway, since there's more PC's in the party). Or lower the extra hit points they receive when leveling up, thus making them more vulnerable in combat.
A last thought is to encourage less combat orientated classes. Such as the bard class. The bard is useful at times, but is underpowered in combats. As such, it will encourage roleplaying without heavily influencing the encounters.Just my 2 cents.
I was glad to have a character express interest in the bard just because I knew that the class isn't as combat-oriented as some of the others. If we end up without a cleric or arcane caster, that may also make it a little tougher on the party. I'm sure that I'll manage, come what may, but I wanted to see what other GMs had to say about it. Lowering the gold rewards is a good idea, I think. Thanks Neil!
Don't discount the impact of the bard. The bard's inspire courage ability is more powerful the more characters that it is affecting. Think of it like all the characters starting the game with +1 weapons that don't overcome DR. In that light it is seen as more impressive.
To your original question though, I don't know that I would change much at all. Because the PCs will be splitting XP between six players instead of four, you will find that as a group they fall a bit further behind the XP curve than would a smaller party.
They still have a huge advantage in number of actions per round, but this would then be offset as time went on with greater disparity in level to EL.
At lower levels this effect will not be as present as XP rewards are the same lvls 1-3. That's ok as well though as low levels tend to be a bit tough and a little advantage to the PCs at this point isn't a bad thing.
Finally, I would probably play the enemy a bit more efficiently against a larger group than I do with my four players who aren't as tactically minded (they are learning all the time though).
Sean Mahoney
Don't discount the impact of the bard. The bard's inspire courage ability is more powerful the more characters that it is affecting. Think of it like all the characters starting the game with +1 weapons that don't overcome DR. In that light it is seen as more impressive.
To your original question though, I don't know that I would change much at all. Because the PCs will be splitting XP between six players instead of four, you will find that as a group they fall a bit further behind the XP curve than would a smaller party.
They still have a huge advantage in number of actions per round, but this would then be offset as time went on with greater disparity in level to EL.
At lower levels this effect will not be as present as XP rewards are the same lvls 1-3. That's ok as well though as low levels tend to be a bit tough and a little advantage to the PCs at this point isn't a bad thing.
Finally, I would probably play the enemy a bit more efficiently against a larger group than I do with my four players who aren't as tactically minded (they are learning all the time though).
Sean Mahoney
That's a good point about the bard and the Inspire Courage ability. I hadn't really thought about it from that angle yet. I had thought about the fact that the PCs are going to be lagging behind the XP curve since there's gonna be less per person, but if that happens I'll just run a set piece adventure from one of the books to make sure that they're not lagging so far behind the EL threats that they're no longer effective against them.
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Hey all! I have a group of friends who have expressed interest in playing through the Second Darkness AP after the game we were doing before got sidelined due to two members of the party moving away. This will be my second time GMing a game, and my first time doing so in a more traditional d20 system; the previous game I ran was a Heroes Unlimited campaign. I had seven players in that one and I was hoping that I would end up with a more traditional party for this one, but it seems that that is not to be. I've had six people tell me that they will pretty much definitely be playing in this campaign, with a seventh potential player - though honestly, I doubt the seventh one will pan out.
My question to all the other GMs out there is this: If you're running a pre-set AP like Second Darkness, designed with four players in mind, what modifications do you make to the encounters and other campaign scenarios to make it more of a challenge to the PCs aside from just adding more bad guys to an encounter or uping the HP total of the BBEG from each part? I know that I could easily do either of those things, but I'd like to see what else can be done to balance the campaign when there's a PC surplus to take into account. Thanks all!
I have been running Second Darkness with Six PC's and it has been working out well thus far. We've had a couple PC deaths due to poor choices of strategy but no one has yet died unfairly, in my opinion. We're running under PFRPG rules and I must applaud the new encounter design system. I have been increasing each encounter in the AP by 1 to account for the larger group size. In most cases it works out mathematically so that additional mobs can be plugged in and everything balances well. In the cases where additional mobs don't jive well, I go back and advance the single mob encounter by 1 CR and all is good. Note pay careful attention to the HD per CR by Creature Type table as the amount of HD gained per CR varies quite a bit from type to type.
An Example:
I have one more question I'd like to ask regarding how the EL of an encounter is determined. I've read through the chapter in the PF core rulebook that talks about how to determine experience, CRs, etc. and while I pretty much get it, there are some nuances to the system I don't quite get. For example:
1x CR 2 Wizard
1x CR 1 Bard
4x CR 1 Rogues
1x CR 2 Imp
My math would then go as follows: EL 5 encounter should produce 1,600 XP.
The chapter on determining the experience awards says that for a non-monster NPC with class levels, subtract two from their CR. So here's how I'm figuring it:
Wizard counts as CR 1/2
Bard counts as CR 1/3
Rogues count as CR 3 [(1-2)+4]
Imp counts as CR 2
CR 1/2 (200) + CR 1/3 (135) + CR 3 (800) + CR 2 (600) = 1,735.
So...is my math wrong? Am I misunderstanding the way the PFRPG CR system works? Or what?
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I have one more question I'd like to ask regarding how the EL of an encounter is determined. I've read through the chapter in the PF core rulebook that talks about how to determine experience, CRs, etc. and while I pretty much get it, there are some nuances to the system I don't quite get. For example:
You know, I completely forgot about the NPC's with class levels count as 2 CR lower than normal. I have not been figuring this in to my calculations and that is why our math differs. Thanks for the fact check.
You know, I completely forgot about the NPC's with class levels count as 2 CR lower than normal. I have not been figuring this in to my calculations and that is why our math differs. Thanks for the fact check.
Actually, the "Shadow in the Sky" book itself says that the first encounter is an EL 5 and I was wondering how that number was arrived at, since the math that I do makes it be a bit higher than that threshold. Of course, I suppose there could always just be some rounding going on. It isn't like 100 XP is a lot to worry about at that point, since the difference is equivalent to throwing a single CR 1/4 into the mix.
You know, I completely forgot about the NPC's with class levels count as 2 CR lower than normal.
Sorry if I appear foolish for asking this, but where does it say NPC's with class levels count as 2 CR lower than usual? I was under the impression that a baddy with NPC levels (commoner, expert, adept, etc) are 1 lower than usual, but I've never heard of it being 2 lower.
Sorry if I appear foolish for asking this, but where does it say NPC's with class levels count as 2 CR lower than usual? I was under the impression that a baddy with NPC levels (commoner, expert, adept, etc) are 1 lower than usual, but I've never heard of it being 2 lower.
Page 291 of the full PF Beta PDF or page 2 of Chapter 12: Running the Pathfinder RPG in the individual chapter PDF, left column, in the segment titled "Adding NPCs."
"...A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels -2. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class level -3."
I generallly don't make changes to an adventure based on number of players. Sometimes it'll be easier, sometimes it'll be harder.
If things are going really well for the players, a monster might run for reinforcements. If the monster gets away, fighting two (or more) encounters at once tends to provide plenty of threat and danger.
I am running SD with five players and it has been plenty hard in the last and current AP(in A Memory in Darkness). We have had animal companions, cohorts, familars, and players all die. So if you are looking for a 6 man team you should do fine. Our group blazed through the first three mods so you could beef up those if you want. But over all it is still very challenging.
Actually, I just discovered that I'm going to be having a seven-man group. It will be (tentatively) composed of the following: Bard, Paladin, Wizard, Monk, Rogue, Fighter OR Barbarian, Cleric OR Sorcerer. The final player's first choice is Cleric, I think, and I hope that's what he goes with. I imagine not having a healer in the group would immediately make it a greater challenge.
The main thing that I'm still kinda confused about is how the EL for some encounters in the AP are calculated. A lot of them I fully understand, but then there are some others, like the one I mentioned above in the spoiler post, that I'm confused on how the EL for the encounter was reached.
Is there anything anywhere that tells you how to calculate the EL from a group of different enemies? Simply calculating the individual CRs and then adding them all together doesn't really seem to be giving me an accurate number.
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The main thing that I'm still kinda confused about is how the EL for some encounters in the AP are calculated. A lot of them I fully understand, but then there are some others, like the one I mentioned above in the spoiler post, that I'm confused on how the EL for the encounter was reached.
Is there anything anywhere that tells you how to calculate the EL from a group of different enemies? Simply calculating the individual CRs and then adding them all together doesn't really seem to be giving me an accurate number.
Neither 3.5 or Pathfinder determines EL by adding up the CR's of individual creatures in an encounter.
Second Darkness AP was written under the D&D 3.5 rule set. I have not actually checked the math for EL, but hey should work out according to Table 3-1 on page 49 of the 3.5 DMG. I could not seem to find an SRD version so it must not be included.
If you are running the AP under the PRPG rules, and would like to mathematically balance the challenge for each encounter add one to each EL listed in the modules and then using the NPC class levels -2 rule and the xp table on the Running the Game chapter. Repopulate the encounters to meet the newly set xp totals. Usually this will mean adding a couple of levels to a single BBEG and increasing the number of creatures present in encounters vs. multiple opponents, or both. I would not recommend replacing an encounter completely with a new monster who's CR is higher than the original AP's EL as this will make for a more difficult encounter than intended on average.
Neither 3.5 or Pathfinder determines EL by adding up the CR's of individual creatures in an encounter.
Second Darkness AP was written under the D&D 3.5 rule set. I have not actually checked the math for EL, but hey should work out according to Table 3-1 on page 49 of the 3.5 DMG. I could not seem to find an SRD version so it must not be included.
If you are running the AP under the PRPG rules, and would like to mathematically balance the challenge for each encounter add one to each EL listed in the modules and then using the NPC class levels -2 rule and the xp table on the Running the Game chapter. Repopulate the encounters to meet the newly set xp totals. Usually this will mean adding a couple of levels to a single BBEG and increasing the number of creatures present in encounters vs. multiple opponents, or both. I would not recommend replacing an encounter completely with a new monster who's CR is higher than the original AP's EL as this will make for a more difficult encounter than intended on average.
Right. That's what I figured I would end up having to do. Thanks a lot! I knew that you didn't just add up the CRs to get the EL, but I also had no clue how to get accurately ascertain it. I'll end up following your suggestion, I'm sure, of bumping the EL up one level and then using the Running the Game chapter to repopulate the encounter.
Thanks again!