Some alternative rules I'd like to see given treatment with Pathfinder


General Discussion (Prerelease)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I know Pathfinder at it's core is supposed to be 3.5 compat, so the introduction of a bunch of alternative rules may not be what Paizo wants to do. I hate 4.0 but in some ways I'd like to see Pathfinder going farther than it is in making changes. But perhaps their own equivelent of Unearthed Arcana might be a good follow up.

Here are some rules that I'd like to see given the Pathfinder treatment:

1) Spontaneous casting clerics/druids: The main reason here is that with all the spell supplements in 3.5, it can become really intimidating for these classes to chose spells everyday. Spontaneous casting simplifies that problem.

2) Alternative class abilities to animal companions: I find that animal companions hurt a game a lot more than help. They give one character essentially two creatures to play, the companion is always getting killed at higher levels, and often has 3 or more attacks, which at low levels are very powerful and at high levels just mean that the player is rolling a bunch of pointless attacks that don't do sufficient damage to make a differene.

3) Alternative to wildshape: Like the shapechanger druid variant.

4) Lower magic settings. I have toyed with the idea of providing exta inherent stat, save and ac bonus to PCs and increasing the cost of permanent magic item to remove the overdecorated Christmas Tree effect of high level 3.5 play. I don't mean Iron Heroes here, I just mean %33-%50 less magic than standard 3.5

Sovereign Court

Erithtotl wrote:

I know Pathfinder at it's core is supposed to be 3.5 compat, so the introduction of a bunch of alternative rules may not be what Paizo wants to do. I hate 4.0 but in some ways I'd like to see Pathfinder going farther than it is in making changes. But perhaps their own equivelent of Unearthed Arcana might be a good follow up.

Here are some rules that I'd like to see given the Pathfinder treatment:

1) Spontaneous casting clerics/druids: The main reason here is that with all the spell supplements in 3.5, it can become really intimidating for these classes to chose spells everyday. Spontaneous casting simplifies that problem.

2) Alternative class abilities to animal companions: I find that animal companions hurt a game a lot more than help. They give one character essentially two creatures to play, the companion is always getting killed at higher levels, and often has 3 or more attacks, which at low levels are very powerful and at high levels just mean that the player is rolling a bunch of pointless attacks that don't do sufficient damage to make a differene.

3) Alternative to wildshape: Like the shapechanger druid variant.

4) Lower magic settings. I have toyed with the idea of providing exta inherent stat, save and ac bonus to PCs and increasing the cost of permanent magic item to remove the overdecorated Christmas Tree effect of high level 3.5 play. I don't mean Iron Heroes here, I just mean %33-%50 less magic than standard 3.5

Um #1 is a no, those classes are already some of the most powerful in the game, giving them spontaneous casting without significantly changing how their spellcasting works makes them hands down the most powerful classes in the game.

#2) has allready been done, there isn't a single class that has to take an animal companion.

#3) wildshape has been changed to reflect the beast shape spells, so also already done.

#4) Every game I play is lower magic, than standard D&D so I don't know what you are asking for here, that's something for the DM to do on his own.


Have you looked at Pathfinder much?

Erithtotl wrote:
1) Spontaneous casting clerics/druids: The main reason here is that with all the spell supplements in 3.5, it can become really intimidating for these classes to chose spells everyday. Spontaneous casting simplifies that problem.

Are you sure this is a problem that needs to be fixed?

Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game. With Pathfinder's channel energy trick and their improved domains, they are even more powerful than in 3.5.

One of the limiting factors, however, is deciding during morning rituals what spells might be needed for the rest of the day.

Give them full spontaneous casting, and their power multiplies even more.

Druids, on the other hand, took a serious beating in the Pathfinder rules, and they've always had the weakest spell list of all the primary spellcasting classes.

I've argued before for spontaneous casting for druids. It would add a bit of balance, or at least symmetry for the devine core classes to have one prep caster and one spontaneous caster, just like the arcane core classes.

Erithtotl wrote:
2) Alternative class abilities to animal companions: I find that animal companions hurt a game a lot more than help. They give one character essentially two creatures to play, the companion is always getting killed at higher levels, and often has 3 or more attacks, which at low levels are very powerful and at high levels just mean that the player is rolling a bunch of pointless attacks that don't do sufficient damage to make a differene.

Check your Pathfinder Beta. There is already an alternative to animal companions. The druid can take a divine domain instead.

Furthermore, the animal companions have gotten a bit of a rewrite (on these forums, not in the beta, but it was Jason's post that described the rewrite, or at least a beta version of the rewrite) that makes them advance a little better, so they're not quite so overpowering at low levels, and not so weak at higher levels.

But you're right. It doesn't change the fact that the druid's have 2x as much to do every round as everyone else, which seems to bog things down a bit.

A simple solution is to hand off the druid's animal companion to another player. While the druid is doing druidy stuff, the other player can be maneuvering and attacking with the critter. Saves a lot of time.

Erithtotl wrote:
3) Alternative to wildshape: Like the shapechanger druid variant.

Pathfinder beat the tar out of wildshape, cripplign it so badly that it is almost (but not quite) useless.

As it currently stands, this class ability could be replaced with the ability to blow soap bubbles out of the druid's ears at will, and it would be almost a fair trade.

Before Pathfinder should look for alternatives to Wildshape, they first need to fix what they broke.

No, it doesn't need to be fixed all the way back to 3.5 uberness. But somewhere in between would be nice.

Then I would agree with you.

In fact, I'd like to see all classes get alternative abilities to allow diversification of class builds.

Erithtotl wrote:
4) Lower magic settings. I have toyed with the idea of providing exta inherent stat, save and ac bonus to PCs and increasing the cost of permanent magic item to remove the overdecorated Christmas Tree effect of high level 3.5 play. I don't mean Iron Heroes here, I just mean %33-%50 less magic than standard 3.5

This is seriously a double edge sword.

I like the idea of low-magic settings.

I don't like the idea of everyone being a cookie cutter of everyone else: "Oh, we made 5th level. Sweet, everyone gets +1 to all saves and +1 natural enhancement bonus to your attack and damge rolls. Yay!"

I like the idea that one 5th level fighter might have a +1 sword, while another has a girdle of +2 STR and another has +1 armor. They all might be different.

I like the idea that as a DM, I can restrict abilities. Hey, that celestial monk is seriously deadly, overshadowing the other classes in combat. I guess I won't hand out these +2 sai for another level or two, let the others catch up a bit.

Or the revers. Poor ranger with her d8+1 damage just can't match the damage output of the other classes. Time to find a +2 composite bow (16 STR) so she can be d8+5 damage and won't feel so useless in combat.

Take away those options, roll them into automatic bonuses available as the characters level, and everyone becomes the same, and the DM loses so much control over who gets what modifiers and when they get them.

Big hassle.

Unless you have the kind of group that will let you hand the bonuses out sight unseen:

"Hey, Joe, your monk made 8th level, and for this level you get +2 CHA."
"+2 CHA? CHA? I'm a monk, not a paladin!"
"Well, that's what it says right here in my super-secret DM's leveling chart".
"Hey, didn't Sally's fighter get +2 STR when she turned 8th level last week?"
"Uh, well, er, uh, you must be remembering wrong, Joe. Yeah, that's it..."

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of low-magic campaigns.

Unfortunately, the easiest solution just seems to be play the RAW, don't hand out the Christmas Tree of magic items, and tone down the encounters a little to compensate.

More work for the DM? Absolutely.

But hey, it was the DM's decision to play this game in a way it's not intended to be played. The DM ought to be reasonable enough to know that there are consequences for a decision like that, and for me, tweaking encounters down a bit is much less of a price to pay than losing the flexibility to reward/restrain the players as I choose.

Scarab Sages

Lastknightleft answered 2-4 already, so let me address #1 a little

[1) Spontaneous casting clerics/druids: The main reason here is that with all the spell supplements in 3.5, it can become really intimidating for these classes to chose spells everyday. Spontaneous casting simplifies that problem.

Technically, Pathfinder has already addressed these. How you may ask? Well, one purpose of the Pathfinder rpg is to bring the power of the core classes back in line with the newer expansion classes that arose from supplements. For example ,the Favored Soul (from the Complete Divine) is your spontaneous cleric. You just use that class as written, and it fits in with the pathfinder classes. Same reason why you won't see a pathfinder warlock. It is already powered up.


For spontaneous clerics/druids, just give them spells per day/spells known like a sorcerer.

Let domain spells be extra spells known instead of bonus spells.


Erithtotl wrote:


4) Lower magic settings. I have toyed with the idea of providing exta inherent stat, save and ac bonus to PCs and increasing the cost of permanent magic item to remove the overdecorated Christmas Tree effect of high level 3.5 play. I don't mean Iron Heroes here, I just mean %33-%50 less magic than standard 3.5

What DM_Blake said: don't clutter with any adds-on, play by RAW.

As a DM of a low(er) magic setting, you should be aware of certain things:

- many monsters will be harder to kill/overcome (this is even more true as the CR goes up). Be wise in your choice of encounters.

- you need to de-marginalize certain concepts that would be otherwise too frequent to impress anyone in a high magic settings (raise dead for example)

- Some spells should be restricted (more or less severely as the DM seems fit), such as anything that allow flight or invulnerability to something.

- I'd suggest leaving the +1 enhancement stuff as the "notch-up" from masterwork with the same availability and removing its magical quality for the purpose of overcoming DR. Make magic stuff rarer but more significant.

There would be a lot more to say, but basically it comes down to applying a filter rather than compensating for the lack of magic.

'findel

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