Dungeonscape (which Jason co-wrote) has fighter substitution feats for level 2 and 6 that among other things let you damage opponents that you bullrush into solid objects.
Shield Slam gives you a bullrush with your shield bash, and knocks opponents prone when they hit solid objects.
So if you used them together, you could conceivably mash opponents into walls and knock them prone with your shield bash. This sounds pretty fun, especially to someone who played hockey as a child. It is unfortunately fairly feat intensive so you're probably going to suck until level 7 or 8.
Has anyone tried this combination?
Does anyone think it is viable?
1 Dodge
1B Mobility
2 Dungeon Crasher part 1
3 Improved Shield Bash
4 Spring Attack
5 Two Weapon Fighting
6 Dungeon Crasher part 2
7 Shield Slam
So at level 7, you move and attack (or charge if that will still aim the target at a solid object). Then hit them with the sheild bash, and it bullrushes them into the solid object (8d6 + 3*str), knocking them prone.
Their next move action it taken up with getting to their feet.
Depending on how far away they are you either step forward and do a full attack only with the shield (so no two weapon fighting pentalties), or charge them since it is a straight path. Each bash into the solid object behind them gives a bullrush for another extra 8d6 + 3*str, and knocks them prone again.
And from there, the build can either expand on two weapon fighting, or something else for those occasions where there isn't any handy terrain to smash people into.
Eric Mason 37 wrote: Does anyone think it is viable?
1 Dodge
1B Mobility
2 Dungeon Crasher part 1
3 Improved Shield Bash
4 Spring Attack
5 Two Weapon Fighting
6 Dungeon Crasher part 2
7 Shield Slam
I think it would be viable, but moreso for a campaign that was heavy in dungeoncrawls.
I don't really see knocking someone into a wall *and* prone (unless you knock them unconscious of course). But having both gives you a great set of options while focusing on using a shield.
The spring attack of course means that you can move up, knock them prone, and move back, negating any melee attacks on you the next round as they stand up, and move to you. You could then knock them back into a wall :)
cthulhudarren wrote:
I think it would be viable, but moreso for a campaign that was heavy in dungeoncrawls.
Cool, thanks.
I was thinking about it, and I am reasonably hopeful that trees and bolders might be used as solid objects when we aren't near/in buildings or in dungeons. Additional development after level 7 into other strategies would be a must :)
Majuba wrote: I don't really see knocking someone into a wall *and* prone (unless you knock them unconscious of course). But having both gives you a great set of options while focusing on using a shield.
The spring attack of course means that you can move up, knock them prone, and move back, negating any melee attacks on you the next round as they stand up, and move to you. You could then knock them back into a wall :)
Why don't you think the abilities would stack? (I'm genuinely curious, I don't want to do anything that breaks the rules.)
Shield Slam:
"Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance."
Dungeon Crasher:
"If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing and amount of bludgeoning damage..."
Having been mashed into the boards a few times in my youth, I can assure you that being squished can be followed with ending up prone in real life ;)
The thing I like best about spring attack with this is the fact it lets you move around the target so you can get the best angle :)
Honestly, I would rule for the combo. I can't see any serious rule breaking. I like the concept also. Just wish it weren't so feat intensive to get there.
Krome wrote: Honestly, I would rule for the combo. I can't see any serious rule breaking. I like the concept also. Just wish it weren't so feat intensive to get there. Great, so we have a tie now :)
I was thinking about it, and if your DM is receptive to feat retraining, there is a way to make the build useful on it's way to level 7
1 Power Attack
1B Improved BullRush
2 Dungeon Crasher pt 1
3 Dodge
4 Mobility
5 Spring Atack
6 Dungeon Crasher pt 2
@ level 7, retrain Power Attack to Improved Shield Bash, and Improved Bullrush to Two Weapon Fighting, then pick up Shield Slam with your level 7 feat.
Krome wrote: Honestly, I would rule for the combo. I can't see any serious rule breaking. I like the concept also. Just wish it weren't so feat intensive to get there. I wouldn't call it "serious rule breaking" (and for the record I hadn't read the Dungeon Crasher description). It's simply that both of them give an alternative for "if you rush them into a wall".
I guess it's mostly how I visualize it (in one you're pressed up against the wall hard, in the other you bounce off and fall). The difference between smacking them into it, and crushing them into it. But if you're looking for a reasoning, I'd mention the "movement stops as normal" part of Dungeon Crasher.
I certainly wouldn't call it unallowable or such.
Majuba wrote: I wouldn't call it "serious rule breaking" (and for the record I hadn't read the Dungeon Crasher description). It's simply that both of them give an alternative for "if you rush them into a wall".
I guess it's mostly how I visualize it (in one you're pressed up against the wall hard, in the other you bounce off and fall). The difference between smacking them into it, and crushing them into it. But if you're looking for a reasoning, I'd mention the "movement stops as normal" part of Dungeon Crasher.
I certainly wouldn't call it unallowable or such.
I was viewing it as one does damage when you hit the wall, but doesn't affect the way you land afterward, while the other affects the way you land after you hit the wall. So they are affecting different parts of the same action and that suggests to me that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Going back to my hockey example, it can and does happen that you can be checked into the boards and wind up on your butt afterward :)
Eric Mason 37 wrote: Majuba wrote: I wouldn't call it "serious rule breaking" (and for the record I hadn't read the Dungeon Crasher description). It's simply that both of them give an alternative for "if you rush them into a wall".
I guess it's mostly how I visualize it (in one you're pressed up against the wall hard, in the other you bounce off and fall). The difference between smacking them into it, and crushing them into it. But if you're looking for a reasoning, I'd mention the "movement stops as normal" part of Dungeon Crasher.
I certainly wouldn't call it unallowable or such.
I was viewing it as one does damage when you hit the wall, but doesn't affect the way you land afterward, while the other affects the way you land after you hit the wall. So they are affecting different parts of the same action and that suggests to me that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Going back to my hockey example, it can and does happen that you can be checked into the boards and wind up on your butt afterward :)
Yeah it makes total sense to me. I never had it happen in hockey, but a few fights... being slammed against lockers... same idea...
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