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First, let me say how much I love what has been done so far with the Beta and how much I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the final book this summer!
As a big fan of Rangers, I have to say I think the Beta version of the Ranger is the best take on this class I've seen so far and I'm particularly anxious to see the final Pathfinder RPG version!
Now, my question ...
Much has been discussed about the Beta's elimination of the Track feat in favor of adding that ability to the Survival skill, to which Rangers now receive a bonus. Many loved this, others did not. Recently, I read a quick comment from Jason here on these boards that Tracking might be going back to being a Feat.
I am DYING to know if this has in fact happened or not. Now that the rules are pretty much final, this decision has been made (I would assume, at any rate) so, good Paizo folks ... can you PLEASE throw us a small spoiler bone and let us know which way you went on this???
Is Track a feat again or is it remaining rolled into Survival?
Pretty please???
Then again, you could be assumed to be a great tracker because you're a great survivalist, a person who spends plenty of time in wilderness and/or studying nature.
In the end, I think it would be best for Track to remain a feat, adding a sense of victor when the person owning the feat is effectively able to help his group as none of his comrades don't have it.
I actually prefer it as a part of Survival, with the ranger getting the bonus to it. Anyone can have some survival, and therefore some tracking, but the ranger, trained in it, is just better, as long as he doesn't slack on the skill point placements.
It also allows someone to have the ability if there is no ranger in the party ... I've never liked important abilities/skills being denied to a party because no one took that class (which is why I wouldn't mind a feat or or giving bonus points to a the rogue, but still allowing others that take the appropriate skills to try picking locks and disarming traps and such).
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I'm hoping it stays as written in Beta. The elimination of one feat didn't break the game, and including it into the skill (with Rangers still being best at it) made for more frequent use in my campaign, as well as streamlined play. If only Trap Sense (Rogue) allowed Perception to work the same way, if for no other reason than a sense of a common mechanic.
I hope track stays the way it was in beta - or at least doesn't become a skill with exclusive skills again.
In the same vein, trapfinding needs to work similarly.
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A further voice in favour of skills actually doing what they say on the tin, without having to be 'unlocked' with an access code, that is only provided by entry into a specific class.
So many mundane actions in 3.0/3.5 were restricted by being turned into feats or class abilities, which obscured the fact that some classes got little or no improvements.
DM: Finished making up PCs? What did you get?
Wizard: I got the power to bend REALITY ITSELF!!!! TO MOULD MEN'S MINDS TO MY WILL!!!!!
Rogue: I got 'permission' to use my skill ranks for what they are intended...
Ranger: Yeah, me too. What's THAT all about?
I like the beta version.
Skills became much more meaningful with the beta, one of the best things they have done in my opinion
A simple solution is to give to Rangers a +1 bonus per level to Survival for tracking.
And to turn the Tracking feat into Skill Focus/Tracking.
A simple solution is to give to Rangers a +1 bonus per level to Survival for tracking.
And to turn the Tracking feat into Skill Focus/Tracking.
Well Rangers have +1 per two levels in Beta.
I was thinking the same thing about the Feat. Maybe make it a +4 to Survival checks to find and follow tracks (like Combat casting). Or +X to Survival to track, and +X to Diplomacy (Gather Information) checks to find someone.
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I hope they don't put Track back as a feat. Tracking is such a minor part of D&D overall, and I've never seen a DM really penalize a party for not having a tracker.
Sure, some adventures reward good tracking by providing the lair of recently deceased creatures so as to give a party extra treasure, but this is not common, and has next to no impact on a campaign.
No one I know ever took the track feat unless they were rangers and getting it for free.
I think the current ranger_level divided by two track bonus is fine.
I hope they don't go back the way it was.
No one I know ever took the track feat unless they were rangers and getting it for free.
The oppossite happens in the gaming group I am a memeber of. All players of barbarians and druids take the track feat. For us the Beta freed up a feat slot for something else.
Doug
The oppossite happens in the gaming group I am a memeber of. All players of barbarians and druids take the track feat. For us the Beta freed up a feat slot for something else.
No one I know ever took the track feat unless they were rangers and getting it for free.
And there's the exception that proves the rule :)
I hope they don't add the feat back in as the requirement to use Survival to track, but adding it back in as something else may be better, for backwards compatibility.
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Anytime I think about the Tracking feat, I'm always reminded of DM of the Rings
"When dealing with railroading DM’s, never waste skill points on the tracking skill. If it’s part of the plot, you’ll find it no matter what you roll. If it’s not part of the plot, then it doesn’t exist anyway."
Anytime I think about the Tracking feat, I'm always reminded of DM of the Rings
"When dealing with railroading DM’s, never waste skill points on the tracking skill. If it’s part of the plot, you’ll find it no matter what you roll. If it’s not part of the plot, then it doesn’t exist anyway."
Ever since I read that in DM of the Rings, I've made sure, as a DM, to include non-essential stuff that can only be found by tracking, to reward those who can track and take the time to do so.
Well it rewards the whole group for taking the time to track the secondary goodies.
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I think I like keeping basic tracking rolled into the survival skill, as it is now. It seems more realistic.
There could still be a Track feat though, that allows greater use of tracking / survival ... or maybe Rangers just get Skill Focus: Survival as a free feat?
Anyway, I'm still hopeful Jason might give a little teaser and tell us what was actually decided regarding this.
I hope they don't put Track back as a feat. Tracking is such a minor part of D&D overall, and I've never seen a DM really penalize a party for not having a tracker.
DM of the Rings (at least it was DM of the Rings) hit it on the head: If the story calls for your finding and following the (railroad) tracks, it doesn't matter if you have Track or not, or whether you have no ranks in Survival or Search and int and wis 3.
While humorous, it does make a lot of sense.
Combine that with unlockable skills being a bad idea, and Track (and Trapfinding) are done for.
(edit:) Yeah, what everyone else already said. Serves me right for replying before I read all new answers.
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All good points. Some games make more out of tracking than others do. I think the nice thing about rangers and tracking is that they can initiate it more successfully, as opposed to just doing it when the story calls for it in order to move the plot forward.
Either way though, my initial question still remains: I'm really interested to find out if the final rules are putting some kind of Track feat back in and if so, how if will affect tracking as part of the Survival skill.
The old Track was among the stupidest rules 3e had, and if there will be a Track feat again, it better be a lot different from 3e's.
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The old Track was among the stupidest rules 3e had, and if there will be a Track feat again, it better be a lot different from 3e's.
Survival Ranks:
0: You can follow tracks using Survival, as the Track and Legendary Trackers feats.
4: You can identify the race/kind of creatures from their tracks.
9: You can move through or over difficult natural terrain without being slowed, taking nonlethal damage, or suffering other impairment. You take no penalties for moving your speed when tracking, and only -10 when moving double your speed. You can track subjects protected by pass without trace or similar spells at a -20 penalty.
14: You can track through the Astral Plane with a DC 35 Survival check. You can determine the destination of a teleport spell when standing at the point of departure with a DC 40 Survival check; if you have teleport or a similar spell, you can follow as if you had seen the destination once.
19: You are immune to natural planar effects as if you had planar tolerance always active.
** spoiler omitted **
Is that supposed to be a feat?
This shouldn't be a feat. If you can do something with a skill, you can do something with a skill. No minimum skill ranks (unless you count trained/untrained, which I can get behind), no unlock feat. You roll the die, and the result decides what you can do.
Same for trapfinding, by the way. That BS about "only traps with a DC of 20 or less" has to go.
I hope it stays a skill, it should have never been a feat IMHO. I like it being usable to other classes, yet the rangers gets a bit of a boost and class ability that enhance it
Really hope this stays
Things that aren't supernatural should generally be possible for everyone - Not every class should be equally able, but making stuff impossible "because the rules say so" doesn't sit well with me.
Yes, to me that means that classes other than rogue should be able to exploit distraction by going for vital spots - not as good as a rogue, but it should generally be possible.
Same for spotting and disabling traps.
Same for concentrating on a single weapon.
The purely "mundane" classes will be better at this stuff, maybe even a lot better, because it's their schtick, but generally, everything that isn't magical in nature should be generally trainable.
Of course, that's probably beyond PF1.0, but it should already start down that way - and PF2 should take it further.
Is that supposed to be a feat?
** spoiler omitted **
It reminds me of a K/Frank Trollman version of the Track feat (all of their feats scale somehow).
Hope you're joking??????
Not at all. I'm not saying that they'll start developing this as soon as they've got PF1 in the stores (well, there's probably already a file or folder with notes about PF2 in it, somewhere in the Paizo offices. I know that if I were the creator of 3e or PF, I'd already have notes for the next version).
It will be years and years before PF gets a new edition (basically a 4th edition), but I'm sure it will come one day. PF isn't perfect. No game system ever is.
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It reminds me of a K/Frank Trollman version of the Track feat (all of their feats scale somehow).
*gives cookie*
Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if PF2 has notes already. I forget which designer it was that said in an interview 'The moment you think you know everything about game design, you're right. And the rest of the gaming world will pass you by.' but I'm pretty sure it was someone who works at Paizo now.
Something I've learned in the military, and from my enjoyment of different forms of entertainment. We call it 'continue to improve your tactical environment'. Basically, never stop learning, never stop making what you do better. The moment you do, you fall behind, and someone else who didn't stop will best you.