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Look to Eberron to see what a Techno-Magic world looks like...
Lightning trains, Airships, Sending Stones, Everbright lanterns, all sorts of magically enchanted little items.
The Dragonmarked houses act as guilds, regulating prices and providing new inventions. I could see The House of hospitality offering non-rigged gambling in Eberron...along with the other services they provide...
I'm a steampunk fan, and Eberron is akin to a steampunk world, more magical than scientific, but still a fun world if that's your cup of tea...which I know for many it isn't...
Some people like it deadly and Gritty, Iron Heroes is good.
If you want more Steam oriented go for Iron Kingdoms.
(bit of a threadjack I know, sorry...maybe it was really a Steam Jack...)
I'm not saying that magic replaces all "technology". But it will considerably slow down a number of fields.
Sure, you'll have watermills and the like. That's stuff where magic will quickly be at its limits (especially with the cost involved), but flying machines? Just get a fly spell or a flying mount - both are there right now, without the need to invest a hundred years of research to get there. Same with non-magical cures for every single disease. Unless it threatens to wipe out your source of income and cheap labour, the royal physician (cleric of your deity of choice) does better now than those snake oils will do in a year, and you might not have a year.
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I'm not saying that magic replaces all "technology". But it will considerably slow down a number of fields.
Sure, you'll have watermills and the like. That's stuff where magic will quickly be at its limits (especially with the cost involved), but flying machines? Just get a fly spell or a flying mount - both are there right now, without the need to invest a hundred years of research to get there. Same with non-magical cures for every single disease. Unless it threatens to wipe out your source of income and cheap labour, the royal physician (cleric of your deity of choice) does better now than those snake oils will do in a year, and you might not have a year.
You seem to have missed that I was using that as an extreme example to demonstrate the core principle.
The question was what real world medieval to Renaissance technology there was, and whether it would co-exist with magic that could duplicate much of it.
For the first part, there are several useful reference books, my favorite of which I cited.
For the second part, the answer is, with my reasoning for why, all of it.
Beyond that, depending on circumstances, you have either a continuation of parallel development, or the development of a Magipunk setting, again with my reasoning given.
As for the assertion that nobody "needs" to or will invest in a hundred years of research, all available evidence is against that.
For actual technology, nobody ever considered that such research would take 100 years, or more accurately, several iterations of cumulative effect over several hundred years, to develop. We only recognize such now, long after the fact. And, having recognized it, we gleefully indulge in such research now.
For fantasy technology, magic, and pseudo-technology, there are constant examples of this or that race, elves and aboleth being quite favored in Golarion, and transcended humans, undead and those undergoing apotheosis being the standard tropes, engaging in research over multiple centuries.
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i believe in Dragonstar, where the dragons are frist ones to move between stars and find that there are more of them than they thought... and alot more of us... so they organice and conquer the universe :P
using both magic and technology... because a wizard is not exactly rival for a Gauss Cannon or a Star Destroyer :P
You seem to have missed
Did you write that with as much arrogance as I read it with?
The question was what real world medieval to Renaissance technology there was, and whether it would co-exist with magic that could duplicate much of it.
The question doesn't make sense, because the game world isn't medieval to Renaissance. So many things are different - and magic is just one of them.
The age of civilisation is just one of them. Human(oid) history on Golarion, for example, is twice as old as our history, probably more. And they had ancient precursers (which we didn't, at least not any we can prove).
If there was no interference from magic, Golarion's people would have technology the likes of which we haven't even thought of in science fiction. After all, they have what would be the year 10.000 A.D. in our world.
I think magic is the main reason the tide of science and technology has been slowed to a trickle in your average D&D world. How fast is it? Who knows? Who could know?
And it's perfect - the GM can decide about S&T and its advance any any decision he does is perfectly justified.
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Y'all can debate this all day long, but, in reality, the game designers probably think about two seconds about this stuff. The reason tech is so low in a magic world is typically, the designers want it that way. There is no way "mundanes" would sit idly by and allow innovation to stagnate because the guy with the pointy hat can go "abracadabra" and make bunnies appear. Whoop-de-doo. Unless there's a wizard for every farmer, and a cleric for every village, normal people are still going to figure out how to do stuff better in mundane ways.
There is no way "mundanes" would sit idly by and allow innovation to stagnate because the guy with the pointy hat can go "abracadabra" and make bunnies appear.
Well, he can go abracadabra and make bunnies appear where there used to be farmers. He can't get everyone (unless he has fireball, which isn't that unlikely. Or burning hands), but if you say or do something first, he can get you. So innovation is promoted and you're dead? Or a rabbit, and on a spit (i.e. dead)? Good for you.
Beyond that, what can the mundanes do?
And that's the question. What can they do? We'll never know, until we find an alternate universe with magic in it.
So we're right: The designers, and GMs, can do with scitech whatever they want, and it will never be wrong. You can't prove it's wrong.
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http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html
Here we have perhaps the earliest example of stone cutting and masonry dating to 9000BC (11000 yrs ago!) If you look at the workmanship of these Stone circles cove a 22 acre site and these ar big stones.
Based on that alone it predates the earliest mudbrick dwellings of catal huyuk by 2000 years and shows a higher level of technological knowhow Than a that neolithic trade centre.
So just when you think you have it figured out, along comes a find that says you only think you know it all. Now all they need is a to find a city of fitted masonry build by the same people. Unless this is the city.
Gobekli Tepe
Population: 120
Description: 17 Megalith Circles spread across 22 acres.
Skills: Craft(Masonry/stonecutting), Art(Stone Sculpture/carving)
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There is no way "mundanes" would sit idly by and allow innovation to stagnate because the guy with the pointy hat can go "abracadabra" and make bunnies appear.
Well, he can go abracadabra and make bunnies appear where there used to be farmers. He can't get everyone (unless he has fireball, which isn't that unlikely. Or burning hands), but if you say or do something first, he can get you. So innovation is promoted and you're dead? Or a rabbit, and on a spit (i.e. dead)? Good for you.
Beyond that, what can the mundanes do?
And that's the question. What can they do? We'll never know, until we find an alternate universe with magic in it.
So we're right: The designers, and GMs, can do with scitech whatever they want, and it will never be wrong. You can't prove it's wrong.
check the old Mage: The Awakening or Sorcerer's Crusade...
old wizards with pointy hats where brought down because people got tired of them... ah an got on their side people who created mass produced weapons... in the en ok you can get a lot of people with a fireball... but if they spread and began shoting at you... its pretty sure you will end as a dead wizard after couple of shots...
that is one of the reasons James so does fear to bring firearms... he is right... they need to become central part of the thing... if you have a gun you can use without casting... with quickdraw if you are a good shot you can fell a mighty wizard before he can cast his mighty Fireball!
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Did you write that with as much arrogance as I read it with?
Nope, once again you are projecting.
The question doesn't make sense, because the game world isn't medieval to Renaissance. So many things are different - and magic is just one of them.
Well, yeah it is. You can at best get into an extended discussion as to whether the theme is properly more Bronze Age as has been mentioned at times, but ultimately the technology and social development is clearly focused on a Late Medieval-Early Renaissance level with variations for flavor.
The age of civilisation is just one of them. Human(oid) history on Golarion, for example, is twice as old as our history, probably more. And they had ancient precursers (which we didn't, at least not any we can prove).
Which does not change the technology and culture presented, it just sets up a theoretical basis for tech stagnation.
If there was no interference from magic, Golarion's people would have technology the likes of which we haven't even thought of in science fiction. After all, they have what would be the year 10.000 A.D. in our world.
Except of course for the world having been wiped out that one time. I expect that did a bit of nastiness to overall tech progression, Aroden notwithstanding.
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Stepping away from the Intelligence debate for a bit, I wanted to target the casino games again.
I listed off the details of all four games in Riddleport as from the first Second Darkness pathfinder. A couple of my players are having a hard time believing that any of them get played at all, especially Bounder.
Obviously there are gambling addicts out there, but is there any other explanation? Here are their responses:
As far as casino gaming is concerned, I have no problem with such steep house edge for some casino games. That's how casino's work! However, without incentive, these games would plummet in popularity. For example, the two best games in terms of house advantage are Baccarat (booooring) at 1.36% house advantage and the pass line Craps (the most fun game in an entire casino) at 1.4% house advantage. Even with the pass line, players can bet with odds (2.5:1 in some cases). On the other side, slots have the very worst odds in a casino (the standard $0.05 slot machine has over a 15% house advantage). However, there are *potentials* for VERY big payouts if given enough time at the machine.
Essentially, I have no issues with an 18% house advantage for a game, even if it IS a table game . The only issue I have is that there's no incentive to stay at the table; i.e. you've got to make some more money back sometimes. With the 1&20 rule, that happens statistically once every 400 times, so why would you only be getting 2:1 odds? I know it's just a bonus, but if you get a 1 and a 20, you should be getting probably about 300:1 odds (that's STILL a bad bet to make but there's much more incentive to play). In fact, the way a casino would run that game is that the 20 & 1 bonus wouldn't be a bonus, but a side-bet. i.e. at the beginning of the game you'd be able to CHOOSE to place a side-bet of 10-20% of the original bet to "play for" the 1 and 20. If you lose, you just lose the side-bet. If you win, you'd get 300:1 or 350:1 odds (so a bet of 1 silver (base) and 2 copper (side-bet) would yield 4 silver (base - if they decided to double their bet after the first roll) and 6-7gp for the side-bet, based on odds). The house would still be making money, but players wouldn't be leaving quite so soon.
A regular double-zero roulette table is 5.25% house advantage normally. I'm guessing that the roulette game there is a triple zero? Or perhaps fewer than 36 numbers?
I realize I'm just having fun here with Paizo's attempt at gambling, but it just doesn't seem realistic to me =) I know that you said people are dumb in Golarion - they're dumb here too! If people were smart, they'd stay out of casinos. Be that as it may, the average human being has 100 IQ and the average Golarian has 10 INT (by defenition). The existence of casinos means that there must be the existence of statistics in some form (otherwise why would casinos open?). All I'm saying is that common sense shows how a player would likely COME BACK to a table with EITHER a low house advantage OR a table with high odds.
Yeah, that last game [Roulette] is the only one that would be remotely appealing. I talked to XXXXX on Saturday and XXXX about the situation for quite a while yesterday. Simply put, I agree with XXXX's entire first post. Nobody, even commoners, will be coming back to a casino if they're always loosing. There's no fun in that. Since it'd be a stationary location, it wouldn't do so hot soon after opening. Now, on the otherhand, I could see some of these games played by any traveling shows, like Varisians. Odds are typically worse at these 'carnie games' because they're 'unique' or flashy, something most commoners that don't travel won't see. That way, they're interested, give the game a shot, eventually find out how unfair they are, then go do something else. They won't come back, but the show's owners won't care. They'll be somewhere else in a fortnight, effectively scamming another group of villagers into playing thier games of chance.
Any suggestions? I want to defend the games, but I'll admit that Casinos aren't exactly an area of expertise of mine. :) I think it makes perfect sense to have Bounder around to target the newbies in town, wheras games like Golem are for more experienced players. Any other reasoning behind their existence?
First off, blackjack is the only popular casino game, through smart play, you can lower the odds to almost even (and, if you can count a six deck shoe, or have a partner, you can make them better than even). The odds for roulette are abysmal, unless you only play black/red or odd/even, and, frankly, that gets boring quick. Craps, well, is crap, come/don't come - pass/don't pass gets boring, which is why people wind up playing the prop bets.
Gambling has never been about the odds, it's about the human desire to "win big". Casinos don't make multi-billion dollar profits because they care about being "fair", they make those profits because the house always wins in the long run. They play on people's greed, which would be why, just about every time I go to Vegas, I'll see several people WAY ahead lose it back to the house (and then some).
The games at the Gold Goblin aren't any different, frankly, and Riddleport is full of people always looking for the big score.
Actually, while the odds for roulette are abysmal, they are curious on a time-weighted aspect. I had a friend who worked near the Strip in Vegas. Most Fridays, he left and went to a casino and put $15-25 on a single number.
Most weeks, he walked away having lost a small amount of money. However 1-2/year he won $700 or so money and had a really cool weekend.
People don't go to casinos to win. They go to have fun and participate in the dream that they could win big. I have a worthless thirdhand anecdote:
A man was in Vegas for a convention at the same time as a statistician convention was going on. He shared a hotel with some of the statisticians and told one that he supposed Vegas was a bit lost on them because they knew how bad the odds were. He response was quite the contrary, they hope to be outliers.
I'm not saying that magic replaces all "technology". But it will considerably slow down a number of fields.
In a world with reliable D&D-style magic, I don't see it impeding technological advance. Magic would be a form of science. You do X and Y and Z happens. Then you investigate the principles that cause Z to happen and link it to X and Y.
What's far more likely to put the breaks on technological advancement, magical or otherwise, in a D&D world is the global cataclysms they're prone to every now and then.
In a world where the gods are active and whose wills, wants and whims are going to have a major effect on advancement of civilisations and nations and even how lucky an individual is on a given day at a given time... maybe its in their interests not to have technology advance apace???
Too much knowledge, too much smarts and the people might just start questioning the very reason for divine beings and worship [gods forbid in essence]...
Could explain a few things no?
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In a world where the gods are active and whose wills, wants and whims are going to have a major effect on advancement of civilisations and nations and even how lucky an individual is on a given day at a given time... maybe its in their interests not to have technology advance apace???
Too much knowledge, too much smarts and the people might just start questioning the very reason for divine beings and worship [gods forbid in essence]...
Could explain a few things no?
Wouldnt a Lawful Good God find it strategically valuable to tell everyone that a Gods Power is equal to his number of Worshipers? Hypocritical not to do so? Or is it a mixed bag?
Someone has to research something somewhere in both cases. The spells don't exist in a vacuum someone had to create them. Just as someone had to create the forge. If research is done to create spells it can also be done to advance technology. There are plenty of reasons why people would do both -- even at the same time. Somethings are simply too mundane in general to put to magical use, or would be more useful if people other than mages could do them -- hence why to advance the sciences... somethings science simply can't do or can't do as effectively -- raise the dead for example (as of right now) which is a reason to research magic.
The major difference is anyone can invent mundane equipment and crafts only a few people can do magic. With such a huge difference someone from the bigger group is going to see something done with magic, want to do it, then without being able to do magic himself will find a mundane way to accomplish the same task.
You don't have to be smart to invent something, just persistent.
In a world where the gods are active and whose wills, wants and whims are going to have a major effect on advancement of civilisations and nations and even how lucky an individual is on a given day at a given time... maybe its in their interests not to have technology advance apace???
For gods of mysticism, sure. Or gods of stupidity like good old Baghtru from the Orc pantheon. But these are less common in most D&D worlds than gods of knowledge
then you have some of the weird tech stagnation like the fact that guns have been on the world for 3800+ years but have yet to advance past early 1800's level
so we have a tec stagnation of roughly 1 to 10 on that which would lend it self well to the fact that most of your higher Int people are busy playing in their wizard towers also the fact that the game designers made the populace of the world have the opinion that anyone using them is a weak coward. and you get a good example of tech suppression in addition. I mean why make or research an item if their is no market for the item.
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Kauri Kage, while I don’t have any articles to refer you to, I can share with you some of my personal experiences. I am a photographer. My work has sent me all over the world. I have worked for a student exchange program called The Experiment in International Living, and I have worked for the Smithsonian. Through the student exchange organization, I had the opportunity to live with several families in different cultures and parts of the world. I have lived with a family in Spain, Ecuador, India, China and New Zealand. Through the Smithsonian, I have worked in indigenous communities. Specifically I worked with a tribe in Brazil, and another indigenous group in Micronesia, in the middle of the pacific. While working in these indigenous communities, it was much like a home stay, we were adopted into families and lived with them sleeping in hammocks, in thatched huts.
I am not sure about the “intelligence” level of people in medieval times, what I can say is this. I have personally interacted with people on a personal level, across the world, in a variety of cultures, and in a variety of “technological “ levels.
While granted I am not a trained sociologist nor anthropologist, I do need to be a good observer in order to be a good photographer. Through my personal experience what I can say is this, in the indigenous peoples I had the privilege of working with, there ran the full spectrum of human intelligence. Some of the people I worked with were certainly smarter then I. Others were not.
I would think that people in the middle ages were not much different then we are today. In I think if you toss in a high infant mortality rate, and a sprinkle of Darwin’s “survival of the fittest”. People on the whole might have been a little hardier then they are now.
Well those are my two cents.