I asked this back during the Pathfinder playtest but I didn't get much response. What do others feel about this spell? It is from the Spell Compendium and seems absurdly broke if you ask me. Just looking for other opinions and angles I might not be seeing.
RUIN DELVER’S FORTUNE spell details
Transmutation
Level: Bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1d4 rounds
In desperate need, you cry out a word imbued with power, granting you a bit of extra luck when you need it most.
When the spell is cast, choose from one of the following effects.
- Gain a luck bonus on Fortitude saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier, and immunity to poison.
- Gain a luck bonus on Reflex saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier, and the evasion ability.
- Gain a luck bonus on Will saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier, and immunity to fear effects.
- Gain temporary hit points equal to 4d8 + your Cha modifi er. These hit points vanish at the end of the spell’s duration.
You can cast this spell multiple times. Each time you do, choose a different benefit.
it is certainly a decent 4th level spell for a bard or a sorcerer, but given it's limited duration, and given the fact that you only get one of those effects per casting, I don't see it as being vastly over powered... although it does not follow the 3.5 mantra that spells should not allow the caster to choose from a number of different effects (seriously, look at all the spells in 3.0 and earlier editions that let you choose from multiple effects, such as emotion, Otiluke's frozen sphere, flame arrow, and eyebite all were either removed, had their powers reduced to one spell effect or were split into individual spells per spell effect in 3.5), so I am surprised that this spell made it in as a single spell and not 4 different spells.
It lasts 1d4 rounds. I mean, it has nice benefits, but, 1d4, that might mean 1 round. At MOST 4 rounds, hardly broken.
Nice, yes, handy, yes. But, it doesn't really seem "broken." It is 4th level.
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I admire its versatility, which is a bigger deal for wizards than bards or sorcerers, I suppose. But then, the wizards is less likely to gain as much from the Charisma-based bonuses.
It seems a little vague.
Are these temporary hit points, all of which go away when the spell expires?
Can I cast this in response to, say, a dragon's attack, after the situation that requires a Will save to resist fear, but before I actually see if my character has saved?
As I said before, I loved it for my 14th level sorcerer, but my DM hated it along with all immediate action spells (which he felt disrupted the flow of the game).
Can I cast this in response to, say, a dragon's attack, after the situation that requires a Will save to resist fear, but before I actually see if my character has saved?
Yes, you can cast immediate action spells in response to an "emergency".
If you look into its history, it is pretty sad what happened to it.
It started here in D&D article (by James Jacobs) where it is Bard 4 only.
Is it too powerful? Probably, but I don't think anyone's too worried about a too powerful Bard 4 spell. I don't see players climbing over each other to play bards. Also, it's themes, bonuses and healing, are right in the bard's wheelhouse.
In the Spell Compendium, they add S/W 4 to it. Zap! Now, something that a 10th level bard can cast once if he has a high charisma is something a sorc can cast 3+ times at 8th level. (Lower for a Wiz but it isn't that useful to the average Wiz.)
Besides that, healing (even temporary) is pretty rare for sorcerer spells, especially life saving immediate action healing.
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If you look into its history, it is pretty sad what happened to it.
It started here in D&D article (by James Jacobs) where it is Bard 4 only.
Is it too powerful? Probably, but I don't think anyone's too worried about a too powerful Bard 4 spell. I don't see players climbing over each other to play bards. Also, it's themes, bonuses and healing, are right in the bard's wheelhouse.In the Spell Compendium, they add S/W 4 to it. Zap! Now, something that a 10th level bard can cast once if he has a high charisma is something a sorc can cast 3+ times at 8th level. (Lower for a Wiz but it isn't that useful to the average Wiz.)
Besides that, healing (even temporary) is pretty rare for sorcerer spells, especially life saving immediate action healing.
Yeah, I was a little dissappointed when this spell became one that more than just bards could use. :(
Did not notice the immediate action bit..that makes it even better. And yeah, as a bard only spell it'd be a lot better.
Still doesn't seem too crazy out there. :)
Yeah, I was a little dissappointed when this spell became one that more than just bards could use. :(
James, I DM a game with a 14th level PC (12 sorc/2 paladin) in the party. The sorcerer has a +8 Cha mod and can cast (8) 4th level spells per day. His saves are Fort +20 Ref +15 Will +25 WITHOUT the Ruin Delvers Fortune. We play Pathfinder + Spell Compendium + Magic Item Compendium and all of his stats and items are legal following recommended GP limits for high level PC's etc.
Would you say that, in that context, the spell is too strong? Or just, in general it is too strong when in the hands of a high Cha sorcerer?
Just wondering what your overall thoughts are?
I can definitely see the excessiveness in the hands of a Sorc, who has no need for anything but Cha. Bards have a bit more MAD, and this spell seems spot on power-wise for one.
I think this is something that should be limited to bards and maybe an alternate luck domain.
+8 cha, base of 6/4/10, a +5 save booster (easily within the gp range), gives scores of 19, 17, 23, before other ability mods. With 12s and relatively cheap +2 boosters in his save scores, plus taking the 3 save boosting feats, he could easily hit 23/21/27. His saves are good, but not amazing. I could probably get them close to 30/25/30 if I tried, all legally with core material. Paladins have good saves, to resist the forces of evil. Thats part of their "schtick".
Of course, when I see Paladin 2 in any stat-block, I immediately smell powergaming. I could be totally wrong, but its just a common trend I see, especially with sorcerors.
In summary, the spell is fine. The spell in combination with the particular character, and the fact that the character is a sorceror, makes it a bit wonky. But consider, he blew a 4th level slot for it. I would have taken Improved Invisibility and made your life a lot harder, personally.
But consider, he blew a 4th level slot for it. I would have taken Improved Invisibility and made your life a lot harder, personally.
My sorcerer took both, naturally. Oh, and he was a War Weaver, so he could give Greater Invisibility to the whole party for one slot.
The DM wasn't too happy about the War Weaver class after that either...
In my opinion, swift/immediate spells for sorcerers are a godsend; otherwise I found that I was stuck with a huge number of unused low level spell slots at the end of the day.
As I said before, I loved it for my 14th level sorcerer, but my DM hated it along with all immediate action spells (which he felt disrupted the flow of the game).
Then it's not the spell, it's the immediate action that let you use it to escape some fate he had in store for you that bugged him. There's a look DMs get when something unanticipated hits them. (Especially those who really try to plan for everything.) I get it from time to time. I love seeing it on the face of the DM when I'm playing.
The spell's fine. Though I agree that it should be bard only.
As I said before, I loved it for my 14th level sorcerer, but my DM hated it along with all immediate action spells (which he felt disrupted the flow of the game).Then it's not the spell, it's the immediate action that let you use it to escape some fate he had in store for you that bugged him. There's a look DMs get when something unanticipated hits them. (Especially those who really try to plan for everything.) I get it from time to time. I love seeing it on the face of the DM when I'm playing.
Yesh, there was definitely some of that ("You're dead." "No, I'm not."), but I think he also wasn't crazy about getting immunity to various effects (evasion, immunity to fear, immunity to poison). He must not be alone on that one, considering that the Pathfinder RPG has nerfed several "immunity" spells like Heroes' Feast and Death Ward.
If I were going to change it, I might change the save bonus to a flat number (like +6, maybe) rather than depending on Cha. Although the flavour of depending on Cha is pretty neat.
P.S. That DM has switched to 4E and he's having a ball with it, so there's a happy ending to the story.
Ok, without a specific statement of approval or disapproval from James regarding the spell, what do others think, overall, about both the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium? I mean, from a critical, balance perspective? I know many, many, of the items in the MIC are very cool and interesting, but I just wonder what is the general consensus on these two books?
Ok, without a specific statement of approval or disapproval from James regarding the spell, what do others think, overall, about both the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium? I mean, from a critical, balance perspective? I know many, many, of the items in the MIC are very cool and interesting, but I just wonder what is the general consensus on these two books?
There are a lot of awesome things in the MIC. I don't like the weapon crystals, but the actual items themselves are great. It's a wonderful way to give characters cool stuff that isn't just like everything else and often has more flavor than power. The Spell Compendium is a bit of a mixed bag having spells both wonderful and wonky. There's a lot of good stuff in there, you just have to be willing to examine things closely to make sure they don't need adjustments.
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Ok, without a specific statement of approval or disapproval from James regarding the spell, what do others think, overall, about both the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium? I mean, from a critical, balance perspective? I know many, many, of the items in the MIC are very cool and interesting, but I just wonder what is the general consensus on these two books?
I think alot of the stuff in the Spell Compendium is broken and/or gears toward people who powergame. In the PHB, mass spells tend to be 3-4 lvs higher, but alot of them in the SC are one level higher. Then you have a second level spell like Combust which is totally broken....
Granted the book does have its fair share of nice non-broken spells, but I think the good outnumber the bad in that book.Magic Item Compendium is actually really cool. Alot of the magic items are 1,2, or 3 times a day and not a continuous effect, which helps me prevent munchkin players in my group.
Personally I think the following spells are in the Spell Compendium are EXCELLENT, and highly encourage their use: chain missile, force chest, and shard storm, oh and greater floating disk isn't bad either.