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Well, power gamers and "rules mastery" are a whole other issue, also to the detriment of accessibility for new players. But there is a snobbery factor (at least where I live) that puts off a lot of people just looking for a casual social experience in a game.
I don't know. I think we just need to come to grips with the fact we are a shrinking hobby and hope for new blood when we can get it.
Also, might be wise to remember that 2E is widely considered a misstep in D&D's history...one it eventually recovered from. Plenty of good things came out of the 2E error, but plenty of garbage too. I'm glad 3E stepped away from the dumbing down of 2E.
I find this statement kind of weird since there were significant complaints about 3e dumbing the game down from 2e. One of the oft-cited examples was the shift from THAC0 to BAB because THAC0 was "too complex".
At the time, 2e wasn't considered that much of an error and I think overall you'll find that it's not considered one at all at its core. It's the other decisions around it - too many splatbooks of dubious editing, too much temerity around easily offended people. 2e was a fine game.
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a) Doesn't matter what the books say, players feel entitled to play whatever they want, and, in my experience, many are upset if thew DM tries to limit them.
b) There's no such thing as a "right to not be offended". Well, unless you think Lenny Bruce getting jailed for his comedy routine was a good thing...
a) That is an issue created by the players, not the game. Perfect example of your statement, however: The Gamers - Dorkness Rising. "The Monk is a basic character class...."
b) Agreed. We're headed that direction, however.
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a) Doesn't matter what the books say, players feel entitled to play whatever they want, and, in my experience, many are upset if thew DM tries to limit them.
b) There's no such thing as a "right to not be offended". Well, unless you think Lenny Bruce getting jailed for his comedy routine was a good thing...
a) That is an issue created by the players, not the game. Perfect example of your statement, however: The Gamers - Dorkness Rising. "The Monk is a basic character class...."
b) Agreed. We're headed that direction, however.
a) Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, I have to deal with players...
b) No kidding...
b) Agreed. We're headed that direction, however.b) There's no such thing as a "right to not be offended". Well, unless you think Lenny Bruce getting jailed for his comedy routine was a good thing...
Oh, there's most certainly a right to be offended and speak out about it. There's just limited legal recognition that the right to be offended trumps the right to offend.
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Oh, there's most certainly a right to be offended and speak out about it. There's just limited legal recognition that the right to be offended trumps the right to offend.b) Agreed. We're headed that direction, however.b) There's no such thing as a "right to not be offended". Well, unless you think Lenny Bruce getting jailed for his comedy routine was a good thing...
The right in question was "to not be offended" as in "not have things that offend occur". Someone can be offended all they want, I really don't care. I'm not going to change who I am on the off chance someone with nothing better to do is "offended" by me.
I don't swear in public, I don't eat children, and I don't go out of my way to be an ass, but if I'm playing Minor Threat or N.W.A. (at a reasonable, non-offensive, volume) in my car at the drive thru and someone walking by wants to be "offended", boo - flipping - hoo.
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I think when D&D tried to come more of a tactical combat simulator and less of an abstract role playing game it was the beginning of the end. I don't remember once really giving two hoots about the exact details of a combat while playing 1e AD&D and still seemed to have fun? Leave tactical combats to tabletop wargames and leave role playing abstract I say. Otherwise the line becomes blurred, people scream that 4e is a complicated boardgame, this was never an accusation leveled at 1e/2e AD&D. I think that perhaps the decline as well as social attitudes (including advances in technology) may be also a little bit of snobbery, adults DO NOT play with little plastic toys. But at the end of the day what we have is a response of the roleplaying companies to keep pace with changing customer expectations. This whole 4e thing has driven me to dust off my 1e books and revisit the things that made D&D a life long hobby for me. For the older amongst us I highly recommend reading over the words (and interesting writing style) of the esteemed mister Gygax - it's wonderful for the soul.
S.
I think when D&D tried to come more of a tactical combat simulator and less of an abstract role playing game it was the beginning of the end.
So in it's very first release in 1974? Or with the publication of the 1st edition AD&D books where everything was written for squares and even hexes?
D&D was formed in the crucible of wargaming. One of the reasons it was so popular was that it was so robust at handling combat.
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e crucible of wargaming. One of the reasons it was so popular was that it was so robust at handling combat.
True about its origins. It was an attempt to scale down to a "single person" combat that no longer required a measuring device (tape/ruler) or a protractor to determine angles etc [cf DBM etc], while keeping the abstract nature of wargaming combat. If you look at 1e it refers to the use of miniatures as an optional extra - and perhaps just to quickly visualize marching order rather than required during a combat. Not sure about squares and hexes, ranges and movement were given in 1" units - again I would say the use of "inches" units to represent feet/yards is 100% due to its wargaming roots. Later editions of D&D have headed more towards the wargame feel for D&D - in fact if you remove the "squares" give each player a ruler then you have for all intensive purposes with both 3.xe and 4e a skirmish wargame!
I wouldn't say 1e was robust exactly... Seen the rules on parrying? I would say quicker and more abstract (i.e. a lot of the "tactical" movement and positioning occurred only in the space between your ears).
Best example, the combat round. In 1e there was 1 minute round of dancing around, hacking, parrying, retreating etc which ended in a single roll to hit (ok multiple attacks aside). What your were exactly doing other than swinging your sword wasn't considered. In later editions rounds became a much smaller time chunk (6 seconds) in which you preformed a single action (or combinations thereof) thus it became required to define more exactly what you could or could not do during a combat round. So in a way a 4e combat round is 1/10th of a 1e combat round. This adds tactical complexity sure, but is that required for a roleplaying game? I would suggest that games like Amber diceless RPG would point to this not being the case, or at least not the required case. But 4e is what it is, and WotC are doing their best to make it successful and drag the next generation of kids away from computer screens - so good on them. WotC seem to get a lot of flack, but a I guess they are walking a fine line between actually liking D&D and having to report back profits to their Hasbro masters. Rather them than me!
So even thought I think maps are a great tool, all I question is at what point of making the "map" the focus of a game does that game become more A than B (shall we say)?
Once again, I like many of the concepts in 4e (1e new system), but I don't think it will be until 5e (2e new system) that the new D&D will be truly great game. Isn't a fault of 4e or the designers, I just challenge people to show me a 1st edition of anything that was perfect (well other than Paranoia, but in that case 2nd ed. Paranoia was "more perfect").
S.
Wow, mere days and we're already at 11 pages?
*brings his fan and his popcorn and watches the flames!*
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You've GOT to be kidding! This? This is sedate!Wow, mere days and we're already at 11 pages?
*brings his fan and his popcorn and watches the flames!*
Agreed the people looking for only fights seem to have departed our fair boards to spread chaos somewhere else I guess? Most people now seem more interested in discussing the game merits & flaws - yes 4e has both! It also seems that most people don't get up in arms when other games (including that dreaded v3.x game) are used for comparison. Sometimes to make a point clear such comparisons are required and beneficial to the discussion point being made.
Hoping continued civil healthy discussion is maintained...
S.
Wow, mere days and we're already at 11 pages?
*brings his fan and his popcorn and watches the flames!*
The thread started in March not May (March is abbreviated Mar for post times). So it hasn't been five days, it has been about eighty days.
Curses! Foiled by my own lack of observation skills! *continues eating popcorn and watching the boards.*
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Hoping continued civil healthy discussion is maintained...
S.
I hate you! You Suck! 4e or $e was dumbed down so crack babys could play it! And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!
:D
Is this you or your room mate?
;)
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Hoping continued civil healthy discussion is maintained...
S.
I hate you! You Suck! 4e or $e was dumbed down so crack babys could play it! And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!
:D
Is this you or your room mate?
;)
It's me, my roomate is the one who covers his ears anytime someone mentions the word pathfinder, he died though, see he was driving and someone tried to tell him why they wanted to buy the Nissan that they saw for sale on the side of the road and My roomate did his la lala song and took his hands off the wheel to cover his ear and drifted into the oncoming lane. it was horrible, body parts were everywhere. Thanks for making me relive it, I have a papercut would you like to pour some lemon juice on it as well?
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It's me, my roomate is the one who covers his ears anytime someone mentions the word pathfinder, he died though, see he was driving and someone tried to tell him why they wanted to buy the Nissan that they saw for sale on the side of the road and My roomate did his la lala song and took his hands off the wheel to cover his ear and drifted into the oncoming lane. it was horrible, body parts were everywhere. Thanks for making me relive it, I have a papercut would you like to pour some lemon juice on it as well?Hoping continued civil healthy discussion is maintained...
S.
I hate you! You Suck! 4e or $e was dumbed down so crack babys could play it! And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!
:D
Is this you or your room mate?
;)
Only if I can get the miracle for 60 afterward...
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Only if I can get the miracle for 60 afterward...It's me, my roomate is the one who covers his ears anytime someone mentions the word pathfinder, he died though, see he was driving and someone tried to tell him why they wanted to buy the Nissan that they saw for sale on the side of the road and My roomate did his la lala song and took his hands off the wheel to cover his ear and drifted into the oncoming lane. it was horrible, body parts were everywhere. Thanks for making me relive it, I have a papercut would you like to pour some lemon juice on it as well?Hoping continued civil healthy discussion is maintained...
S.
I hate you! You Suck! 4e or $e was dumbed down so crack babys could play it! And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!
:D
Is this you or your room mate?
;)
...and you've lost me, huh?
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Hoping continued civil healthy discussion is maintained...
S.
I hate you! You Suck! 4e or $e was dumbed down so crack babys could play it! And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!
:D
Gads man, you are completely right! We should all shun these works of heresy and return to the one true D&D, 1e AD&D by the true master of all we hold dear, Gygax. So burn the 3.x books designed wholly for munkins who know that roleplaying only happens when you have bonuses exceeding +20. Burn the 4e books designed wholly for those with head injuries and an inability to count higher than they have fingers! Bring back Gnomes who max out at 5th level fighter, bring back the 0.00004% chance of being a Paladin under method IV of rolling stats, bring back Monks that no-one ever can qualify for and even if they did wouldn't play! Oh, and bring back Bards that people stare at in awe, and female characters with lower maximum strength stats.
S.
PS: Don't bring back Cavaliers, Barbarians or really anything from Unearthed Arcana - Gygax was not well at this time.
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Hoping continued civil healthy discussion is maintained...
S.
I hate you! You Suck! 4e or $e was dumbed down so crack babys could play it! And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!
:D
Gads man, you are completely right! We should all shun these works of heresy and return to the one true D&D, 1e AD&D by the true master of all we hold dear, Gygax. So burn the 3.x books designed wholly for munkins who know that roleplaying only happens when you have bonuses exceeding +20. Burn the 4e books designed wholly for those with head injuries and an inability to count higher than they have fingers! Bring back Gnomes who max out at 5th level fighter, bring back the 0.00004% chance of being a Paladin under method IV of rolling stats, bring back Monks that no-one ever can qualify for and even if they did wouldn't play! Oh, and bring back Bards that people stare at in awe, and female characters with lower maximum strength stats.
S.
PS: Don't bring back Cavaliers, Barbarians or really anything from Unearthed Arcana - Gygax was not well at this time.
1ed, gah what is it, time for your diaper change, cause you must be 108! 1ed the only people who play 1ed are the old timers who weren't smart enough to change editions and roll with the new generation. God, I don't even know why I'm typing in this forum, If I want you to get it i'll have to send a telegraph to the pony express to contact a singing telegram service to go to your rustic log cabin in the adirondaks that you insulated with tar and bearskins. CAN YOU EVEN HEAR STILL GRANDPA?
And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!
I thought that was Hero.
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And 3.x or 3.suck is so overly complicated and rediculously broken you have to have a degree in advanced astrophysics to make it a playable game!I thought that was Hero.
HERO what do you love math sooo much that you need every game to wrap you in the sweet sweet embrace of quadratic equations? HERO is only fun if your a nerd who gets off to the works of stephen hawkins. Talk about a system so immersed in drudgery that only people who think that the ultimate way to imagine a sword bashing in an Orc is to express it as the negative sum of an inverse fraction.
Hero, the not dumbed-down RPG.
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1ed, gah what is it, time for your diaper change, cause you must be 108! 1ed the only people who play 1ed are the old timers who weren't smart enough to change editions and roll with the new generation. God, I don't even know why I'm typing in this forum, If I want you to get it i'll have to send a telegraph to the pony express to contact a singing telegram service to go to your rustic log cabin in the adirondaks that you insulated with tar and bearskins. CAN YOU EVEN HEAR STILL GRANDPA?
Eh? What was that? Eh? Damn hearing aid, stupid new fangled techology! Back in my day we shouted, shouting never hurt anyone. Sticking bits of plastic in your ear. What's next the wireless transmission of moving pictures?!
Seriously however the misconception that new is better is an artifact of marketing people telling you "new is better". Why? They want to to buy their stuff! Sometimes it's true however, but this isn't a fait accompli. (A)D&D has had 4-1/2 editions, all different at some level - which is the best is a reflection of yourself and your group (and perhaps the stage of your life). 2e was called a dumbed down 1e, 4e is being called a dumbed down 3.xe - how history repeats itself. I have seen however each edition progress more towards "heroic" roleplaying (i.e. I am Conan), rather than "a victim of fate" roleplaying (i.e. Biblo Baggins, Arthur Dent). Bit hard in 4e to make a "normal" person, and conversely bit hard to make a "super" person in 1e.
Just saying,
S.