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I would like to see Pathfinder do at least some work on the epic level rules. The big miss I feel on these rules is the lack of "epic" abilities for epic characters. Sure, a 35th level fighter is powerful, but all he's getting is new feats. An epic barbarian gets more DR and can rage more times per day. The epic spellcasters can get epic spells, if they take the right feats and have the right skills. It just seems that an epic level anything should get some unique, powerful abilities. Also, in another thread, I saw someone complain about adding "Epic" onto everything. I agree; that just seemed very lazy, like "This goes to 11!" (but not as cool). I'd like to see some revamp to the epic rules, someday...
As I said previously here, the thing that hurts me the most in the current Epic rules is the absolute lack of support for GM to help them create Epic adventures.
An Epic adventure (or better, an Epic campaign) should not consist (IMHO) simply on throwing spectacular monsters one after another against the PCs. First of all, where all these almighty monsters come from? The ELH seems to me the old comic 'Death of Superman' - suddenly a bunch of 'Doomsday characters' come out of nowhere on the Earth (or Golarion, Oerth, Eberron, Toril... you name it, you have it) where nobody has never heard of them before and start to break havoc on the world.
Worse yet, the idea of 'epic dungeons' is silly at best. One or two epic dungeon in the world, I can understand (like Undermountain on Toril, or the Spellhold Asylum in the CRPG Baldur's Gate II). One or two epic dungeon on each Plane of Existance, good, it can work. But one or two epic dungeons per adventure, is meaningless - they start to feel strange, out of place, and boring.
Another question without a real answer is 'where Epic characters live in this kind of Multiverse'? The answer is... Union !?! What !?! I came to LOVE Sigil (thanks to the awesome PC game Planescape-Torment, one of the best CRPG experience I have ever had - I've never played the original Pen&Paper AD&D Planescape Campaign), and they basically dismiss it in the ELH to promote a strange extraplanar city full of superheroes?
Please note that I didn't mention the rules - this is a problem that I think can be solved with the help of a good playtest. The real problem is blend the Epic 'system' as a whole into the 'non-Epic' in a credible way, not merely as a patch added (again, IMHO), or we would end with a perfect Epic system (rule-speaking) that has no meaning in the world...
Just my 2c.
In this respect I'm going to call for the solution 4E came up with: Epic Destiny is the best invention the Wizards came up with in this otherwise unholy stepbrother of D&D. It just stops the Epic Sillyness that is named Epic Rules at the right time.
Creative Director
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Pathfinder RPG won't have room to do Epic content justice, but I'm 95% certain that we'll eventually tackle the problem. The first step is to get the main game up and running though. Rules and revisions and possible complete reworkings of the epic level rules will have to wait.
Of course... the game WILL be compatible enough with 3.5 that the current epic rules will still function for those gamers who enjoy them. A new reworking of these rules, though, is something that we want to treat with the attention and respect it deserves. A few pages in the PFRPG won't be able to do that, and a few pages is all we'd be able to spare, alas. Turns out, covering levels 1 through 20 takes up a lot of room!
Pathfinder RPG won't have room to do Epic content justice, but I'm 95% certain that we'll eventually tackle the problem. The first step is to get the main game up and running though. Rules and revisions and possible complete reworkings of the epic level rules will have to wait.
Of course... the game WILL be compatible enough with 3.5 that the current epic rules will still function for those gamers who enjoy them. A new reworking of these rules, though, is something that we want to treat with the attention and respect it deserves. A few pages in the PFRPG won't be able to do that, and a few pages is all we'd be able to spare, alas. Turns out, covering levels 1 through 20 takes up a lot of room!
I like the idea of advancement beyond level 20 in principle, but I loathe the Epic Level Handbook and its implementation of such advancement. I refuse to run epic level campaigns for that precise reason (well, I have run a quasi-campaign using my own incomplete rules on that [lack of time to complete them]). When you do eventually get to making epic level rules, please completely and utterly discard the abomination that is the Epic Level Handbook and design them from scratch.
grumble grumble, adventure paths finish at too low a level "because there isn't enough call for high level play", grumble grumble, now you're talking about epic, grumble grumble, grrrr!
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Creative Director
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As a player in a group that frequently plays epic campaigns (sometimes past 30th level), I truly would appreciate Paizo's take on epic levels.. Even if the product is a 16 or 32 page product, I'd definitely enjoy the chance to implement Epic Pathfinder rules in our games.
I can envision no way that we'd be able to do Epic level rules in 16 or 32 pages. Epic level play requires more than just class advancement rules... we need to give advice, extend spells beyond 9th level, do the same for magic items, provide lots of monsters and hazards, and lots more. Frankly... an epic level expansion more or less has to be a big hardcover book, I think.
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Creative Director
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grumble grumble, adventure paths finish at too low a level "because there isn't enough call for high level play", grumble grumble, now you're talking about epic, grumble grumble, grrrr!
It's sort of a chicken and the egg thing. Would there be more call for high level play if the high level rules were easier to understand? Or is high level play intrinsically complex and is that what attracts players to high level play in the first place?
Personally, I feel that simplifying high level play so that it feels the same as low level play would do a disservice to high level play.
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As a player in a group that frequently plays epic campaigns (sometimes past 30th level), I truly would appreciate Paizo's take on epic levels.. Even if the product is a 16 or 32 page product, I'd definitely enjoy the chance to implement Epic Pathfinder rules in our games.I can envision no way that we'd be able to do Epic level rules in 16 or 32 pages. Epic level play requires more than just class advancement rules... we need to give advice, extend spells beyond 9th level, do the same for magic items, provide lots of monsters and hazards, and lots more. Frankly... an epic level expansion more or less has to be a big hardcover book, I think.
Okay, I'm sold. :)
Though, that does sound like an 'epic' project that may just need a playtest.. just sayin. ;)
I just hope that epic rules eventually do happen..
Personally, I feel that simplifying high level play so that it feels the same as low level play would do a disservice to high level play.
I hear you, however if it's too complex it wont sell. Does the current trend of the latter parts of the AP's not selling as well as the earlier ones indicate a distaste for high level play?, or, an inability to continue to game to that level?, or, the "sweet" spot has past?, or DM's can't handle high level combat?
It would seem like a waste of resources to fully re-vamp the Epic rules without knowing it will sell.
...tough one to call!
It's sort of a chicken and the egg thing. Would there be more call for high level play if the high level rules were easier to understand? Or is high level play intrinsically complex and is that what attracts players to high level play in the first place?
In my experience, high-level play requires a higher level of commitment and preparation from both the GM and the players. Which, IMO, is as it should be. If you're playing a character who's becoming (effectively) a famous (infamous) hero (villain), possibly even legendary, then you should have various options, resources, strategies, and tactics to accomplish your goals. More options make things more complex.
However, not all groups have the ability or the desire to invest the additional time and effort to make high-level play successful. Most of the complaints I've heard about high-level play are basically caused by poor preparation, resulting in delays as the player/GM has to look up and/or calculate the effects of some ability, combat action, or spell "on the fly," instead of having the information readily available by having prepared before the session.
The "swinginess" of high-level play is something that needs to be addressed. However, IMO that's more a problem of the 3.x CR/monster advancement system and certain spells than an inherent factor of high-level play.
Personally, I feel that simplifying high level play so that it feels the same as low level play would do a disservice to high level play.
I agree. Some of the worst examples of high-level play, IMO, "force" characters into only a small subset of available options, effectively "robbing" them of the options, resources, strategies, and tactics that make high-levels a draw to those who do play them.
Personally, I feel that simplifying high level play so that it feels the same as low level play would do a disservice to high level play.
I hear you, however if it's too complex it wont sell. Does the current trend of the latter parts of the AP's not selling as well as the earlier ones indicate a distaste for high level play?, or, an inability to continue to game to that level?, or, the "sweet" spot has past?, or DM's can't handle high level combat?
It would seem like a waste of resources to fully re-vamp the Epic rules without knowing it will sell.
...tough one to call!
For my group, the majority of the players have no interest in long campaigns.
With 4 DMs in the group, we usually have 3 or 4 campaigns going at once (I have a 7th level rogue, 8th level warmage, 8th level fighter, and now a 1st level paladin currently active).
Any suggestion I make like "Hey, let's pick one campaign and run it right up to epic, we can decide to go on into epic when we get there" gets booed and things get thrown at me.
Even if I suggest that our rotating DMs can rotate in and out of that campaign.
Even if it isn't a contiguous premade campaign, but instead is just a series of disconnected adventures with no rhyme or reason, just whatever the next DM throws together to get us a couple more levels on our way to epic.
Nope, no interest.
Further, the campaigns we do run always end around the time we're thinking about getting our levels into double-digits, though I don't think we've hit double-digits yet. Level 8 or 9 seems to be about where we defeat the ultimate BBEG and save the world and retire to focus on some new campaign, never to return.
I'm the newest member of this group, and when someone suggested starting some adventure that was for 12th level characters (not a campaign mind you, just whip up some 12s and start the dungeon) they all looked at me and told me I would have to run it because none of them had ever run adventures that high.
I miss the good old days of starting at level 1 and ending up epic, or at least very close to it.
I miss the good old days of actually using spells above 4th or 5th level, actually seeing magic items worth more than 8-10,000 gold, actually fighting the really really nasty stuff in the monster manuals.
Please, someone, heeellllpppp!
Whew, OK, got that off my chest.
There's one gaming group's pespective on epic (and on high levels, and on middle-high levels, and on double-digit levels in general).
In answer to this topic, I think "Epic" should feel like bigger and better teens feel.
I don't want to be forced to leave my castle and my kingdom to romp off to bizarre plains and hunt demigods in their lairs with the wonky laws of physics.
Sure, I want to be able to do that if I so choose.
But I also want to kill a bigger dragon, or wipe out an army of storm giants, or save the world from the machineations of a group of epic NPCs with the power to literally raze cities and move mountains.
Yeah, that stuff is just bigger versions of what we did in our teens, but "Epic" doesn't have to mean changing our lifestyles and losing the option to play this way.
Further, I don't feel that "Epic" should give us new game mechanics. We've spent 20 levels learning when we get new HP, new skills, new feats, new BAB, new class abilities. Don't suddenly throw that all out the window and hand us a new and clunky game mechanic that is totally different than what we've done before. ELH, I'm looking at you! /glare
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Pathfinder RPG won't have room to do Epic content justice, but I'm 95% certain that we'll eventually tackle the problem.
Best [one day early] birthday present I've ever gotten from someone I've never met.
As state earlier, inviting people to playtest whatever epic system you design could address the chicken/egg dilema. Specifically, exposing people to playing epic with the intention of finding/fixing the bugs could result in a change (however slight it may be) in the community's regard for high level play.
While there are some aspects I like about the ELH system and some I don't, I'd be willing to give what changes you [Paizo people] think improves the game a shot. In the worst case scenario, I could keep our epic games in the ELH system.
In summary, my gaming group eagerly awaits the Epic PRPG hardcover.