I have a question about the Magic of Incarnum splat book. I am running a PF game with the complete books, psionics, and Incarnum as available options for the PCs. One of my players has an optimized stealth character. I know he has some Totemist levels, and he is headed to the Umbral Disciple (cool class concept btw). My problem is with one of the class features and its application in game.
"Embrace of Shadow": Basically is gives you concealment 10% and you get another 10% per point of essentia you invest in it. If the concealment bonus is 20% or higher it gives you the hide in plain sight ability. Unfortunately, it is worded in a way that has me a bit vexed.
Ok as I read it, the ability gives you Hide in plain sight, which means you can perform a hide check while being observed, but still need some form of cover. The way the pc reads it and intends to use it is that the 20% concealment IS the cover and he can hide in plain sight anywhere, including in between spring attacks.
Also, if he is indeed constantly able to use hide even without cover other than the shadows of that ability, when he spring attacks someone, he can hide as part of his move action. Not sure if the sniping rules would apply in this case, but he would effectively be invisible allowing sneak attacks and making him a very hard target seeing as you'd need to spot him to target him with any spell/effect/ or attack.
Any help with this would be appreciated.
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Hide in plain sight requires cover, not concealment. Some people think that it means that they just stand still and go invisible, but I always saw it (since it says you need to be within 10' of cover or a hiding spot) that you just really quickly jump to a hiding spot without anyone being able to see how you got there. The way he wants it is that he is standing there, then he makes a hide check, so he's invisible. That just doesn't work.
Just use the cover/concealment difference. He has concealment, he needs cover. If you rule it that way, there can be no arguing it.
Ok as I read it, the ability gives you Hide in plain sight, which means you can perform a hide check while being observed, but still need some form of cover. The way the pc reads it and intends to use it is that the 20% concealment IS the cover and he can hide in plain sight anywhere, including in between spring attacks.
Hiding just requires cover or concealment. So if he has concealment, he should be able to hide.
By the way, note that Pathfinder rules state that it's impossible to use Stealth while attacking; in 3.5, it was just a -20 penalty.
Personally, I've always found the hiding rules to be vague and even contradictory. At least Pathfinder got rid of one thing that always bothered me: If you can simply hide while attacking with a -20 penalty, why would anyone ever use the "snipe" attack (which also has a -20 penalty)?
But with the ability he has here, he could just stand in the middle of a wide open area with people all around him, and not be seen. It just doesn't make sense. I would say he needs some other form of concealment or cover. Or at least have him make some attempt to hide.
Well, I can't speak about the particular incarnum class in question, but I think that's how it's supposed to work in general. An assassin or shadowdancer can magically vanish into a nearby shadow, even if it's high noon with a crowd of people watching. Does it make sense? Not necessarily from a "real life" point of view. I guess it's like a horror movie: "Where did he go? He was here just a second ago..."
But with the ability he has here, he could just stand in the middle of a wide open area with people all around him, and not be seen. It just doesn't make sense. I would say he needs some other form of concealment or cover. Or at least have him make some attempt to hide.
True you can't use stealth while attacking, which means he sneaks up, gets sneak attack damage, but with spring attack he continues his move action after the attack, so he hides at the end of his move action. So in that case would the sniping rules apply?
well, I know that the shadow dancer specifically mentions shadows, and that they cannot hide in their own shadow. I would count the concealment as "your own shadow". But that's just me
Note that the incarnum class in question says it works as the Ranger ability, and the Ranger ability says nothing about not being able to hide in your own shadow; you just need concealment (which he has) or cover.
Of course, the DM's rule is law. But it's not really much better or worse than Greater Invisibility, IMO.
well, I know that the shadow dancer specifically mentions shadows, and that they cannot hide in their own shadow. I would count the concealment as "your own shadow". But that's just meNote that the incarnum class in question says it works as the Ranger ability, and the Ranger ability says nothing about not being able to hide in your own shadow; you just need concealment (which he has) or cover.
Of course, the DM's rule is law. But it's not really much better or worse than Greater Invisibility, IMO.
The difference is that he has this ability at will which means constantly active. Stacked with Dark Stalker from Lords of Madness along with a crazy stealth check, fast stealth, and spring attack, you have someone with Greater invisibility at ALL times. Sure there are ways around it, but most that are practical are either eliminated by Dark stalker, impossible without a ridiculous perception, or spells which are either too high level to ever really come into effect that often, or don't work due to the fact that he isn't "invisible" but is using a skill.
So as DM I have a character that can not be targeted most of the time, can hit targets without ever being seen and deal sneak attack dmg to boot. Its a very formidable build. I guess my next step is to start reading threads on how to foil stealth characters, course only about 1/4 of those tricks will work...
The difference is that he has this ability at will which means constantly active. Stacked with Dark Stalker from Lords of Madness along with a crazy stealth check, fast stealth, and spring attack, you have someone with Greater invisibility at ALL times. Sure there are ways around it, but most that are practical are either eliminated by Dark stalker, impossible without a ridiculous perception, or spells which are either too high level to ever really come into effect that often, or don't work due to the fact that he isn't "invisible" but is using a skill.
So as DM I have a character that can not be targeted most of the time, can hit targets without ever being seen and deal sneak attack dmg to boot. Its a very formidable build. I guess my next step is to start reading threads on how to foil stealth characters, course only about 1/4 of those tricks will work...
Honestly with access to as many of the books as you are playing, there are quite a few builds that are possible that make this one tame by comparison. HIPS is a very very powerful ability in most of its incarnations, even the core one from Shadowdancer. An intelligent/clever PC that has access to abilities will make sure they are in play and "stack the deck" so to speak in their favor. "Sure I can't hide in my own shadow, but I can hide in your shadow!"
Now, we have almost all the 3.0-3.5 books between our current group members and we play with them. In the homebrew campaign setting we were running the DM could change things on the fly as needed much easier than in reworking something in published adventure. Once the DM decided he wanted to play I said, fine I'll DM, Paizo has some new AP's out and are doing this thing called PFRPG - However I'm not going to allow all the books. There was some complaining but when I explained that I wasn't saying no to all the books period, everyone could each choose one book (so it wasn't like they were sitting there as wasted money) and anyone could use anything from those books, they were ok with it. Reason being, the published AP's are kinda underpowered when you take into consideration everything that is possible with all the splat books, knowing which books and content were going to be in play made modifying the AP much easier. I wanted to give the DM a break but wasn't interested redoing everything from scratch (the DM's world is the same one he's been working on since 2E so his "work" has pretty much all been done in that respect).
Now what does that have to do with you? The situation you find yourself in is pretty much your fault. DM'ing is kinda like parenting and the characters are your kids. As a DM you need to be somewhat selfless, you are running a game for the players enjoyment, ideally for yours as well. The basic nature of the game is "the players win", that doesn't mean things should be easy all the time, or that characters don't die, or that bad things don't happen in general, but that they come out victorious in the end and overall enjoyed getting there. That kinda means "you lose" as a DM, your enjoyment should me more focused on the fun stuff that happens along the storyline and what the players have fun with in your game (You're happy that they are happy kinda thing). Kids get into stuff and do unexpected things, that is basically the whole premise of the game you are running. By saying "you can use all these books for the game" you pretty much gave up the right to complain about things like this, yeah you can do it, but you said it was OK in the first place...
Personally I think you have two choices, the best being just do a little homework on the abilities to make sure they are working the correct way(like you have) and to continue playing. The other is to sit down with the player and say "I wasn't prepared for this and would like you to try another character." The problem with that is you are penalizing a player who was using the rules and not actually doing anything wrong. I personally would kinda take issue with that, but that is me, not to say I wouldn't reroll but I know I wouldn't be having as much fun because I wasn't playing the character I wanted to.
Anyways, Good luck on it, whatever you do!
Honestly with access to as many of the books as you are playing, there are quite a few builds that are possible that make this one tame by comparison. HIPS is a very very powerful ability in most of its incarnations, even the core one from Shadowdancer. An intelligent/clever PC that has access to abilities will make sure they are in play and "stack the deck" so to speak in their favor. "Sure I can't hide in my own shadow, but I can hide in your shadow!"
Now, we have almost all the 3.0-3.5 books between our current group members and we play with them. In the homebrew campaign setting we were running the DM could change things on the fly as needed much easier than in reworking something in published adventure. Once the DM decided he wanted to play I said, fine I'll DM, Paizo has some new AP's out and are doing this thing called PFRPG - However I'm not going to allow all the books. There was some complaining but when I explained that I wasn't saying no to all the books period, everyone could each choose one book (so it wasn't like they were sitting there as wasted money) and anyone could use anything...
I agree with you, and I value fun over all else. My main concern to be honest isn't that he is going to thwart everything I throw at him, its that I won't be able to challenge his character enough to be enjoyable. I've decided to just let things go as they are and play and deal with it as it comes at me. He is playing a Chaotic Good character so he's not out to just screw everyone over and he's a pretty responsible PC to be honest. So as long as everyone is having fun, I'm happy. Just wanted to see what people thought, and yes, the more splat you let PCs use, the more splat you get. Thanks for everyone's help!
Here are a few suggestions for dealing with stealth off the top of my head:
1) Listen checks, don't underestimate them. A stealth character has to move at 1/2 speed or slower to not take a -5 penalty. Couple that with environments (aka circumstantial penalties) like a forest floor covered in dead leaves/dry twigs, or a cave floor strewn with rubble, or a creaky old floor and you are well within the rules to start putting in some minor penalties. I would say -2 easily but no more than -5 in very worst case scenarios. Also a stealthed character is moving slower which means more opposed rolls, this in general is bad, more opportunities for the dice to roll low. Also things like a slightly flooded area or sand covered floor would give away your position guarenteed (foot prints in the sand, your invisible feet would displace water, etc.) but not negate the concealment. There is a precedent for this in the underwater rules, an invisible person shows up as bubble in their rough shape, you can tell which square they are in but you still take the 50% concealment penalty.
2) Doors, you might be quiet and sneaky like, but the door isn't necessarily. And I don't care how sneaky you are, a door opening in plain view when someone knows it is latched and closed means something is up. Shooting first and asking questions later isn't always a bad thing. Mooks are stupid, anyone worth their salt isn't, actually mooks aren't always stupid but they are cannon fodder, there is a difference lol.
3) Scent, guard animals are used for a reason. In game this roughly translates to the smell ability. I know that darkstalker feat is proof against detection for blindsense and tremorsense, not 100% on smell (it wasn't what I was building the character against when I used it). At worst it is another opposed roll which isn't a bad thing. Also it wouldn't be out of the question to use nasty smelling fluids as a sort of "trap" if someone was using guard animals. Covering an outer hall floor (an intentionally "swamped" area) in some pungent alchemical liquid or gel like substance so people have to walk through it when entering could make it easier to have a guard animal detect a hidden/invisible person when they are trained to attack that smell. This would be a very cost effective and mundane way to prevent people from entering a castle or guild area. I could see a bigger bonus here being reasonable (+5 starting, maybe more or different rules even, I'd check some of the 3.5 books to see if there is anything there I seem to remember something). Technically you are tracking the substance, not the character, the other end of that is it will be tracked all over so pin pointing isn't a certainty, however the undisguised smell getting closer to a guard animal would trigger a response. It is easy enough to use prestidigitation (useable at will now) to clean up after a known vistor was there.
4) The Alarm spell (these are srd links btw, check PFRPG for any changes, I can't imagine they would be big). 1st level, 2 hours a level or permanency/always up. The audible one will bring attention to the area (guards, guard animals, etc). The mental one can be even more sinister, you don't know you tripped it, the "bad guy" knows you are there and can prepare and take precautions such as....
4) Another low level spell Faerie Fire. 1st level druid spell, long range, burst effect (not targeted), long duration and no save. Things that are outlined (creatures and objects both) shed light as if they were a candles. I'd feel confident in ruling stealth checks as a similar effect. And you get to choose from a few colors too!
5) Glitterdust, this is wonderful wonderful spell. At 2nd level it is fodder for scrolls and wands and cheap to boot. The save is to not be blinded, anything inside the area of effect takes a -40 to checks regardless - no save, do not pass go, do not collect 200gp. The blindness is just a potential bonus at that point. Any slightly paranoid character with a single level of BRD/SOR/WIZ or the Use device skill will have this available no questions asked. "Shine on!" Mr Stealth.
6) Rely more on AoE effects, they may not make they character visible but they will still take the effects of it. Cloud effects in areas where there is restricted movement are your friends (stinking cloud, cloudkill, etc.), usually they limit sight and if you can block the 10' passage with two opponents going total defese right on the outside square where the cloud ends the PCs have to go through the cloud just to find out they can't get past and have to stay in the cloud. Evil clerics with negative energy channeling are pretty much guarenteed damage even with the save on a pc as well (as well as healing undead in the area)
7) Tactical movement, Flying opponets are usually tough to flank. Rough terrain (or things like entangle spell) will limit already limited stealth movement, if they can only move 10'-15' a round flanking becomes less likely as well. Also you might be able to take advantage of things like AoO's. Move into squares, or past squares the character may be in. If the character attacks he becomes visible, you now have a target, until their next turn. Obviously this only works once though (PC: Oops I forgot I became visible when I attacked, better not do that again.) so you might want to wait for a BBEG to use it (which works well as they are probably the ones who can take the hit too).
8) Armor fortification, having all npc's have +6 armor is obviously a bad idea. However I'm sure in all the books you have access to there is probably a spell or item that gives the effects temporarily. I know the Artificer from Eberron has the ability, I think I've seen spells that do similar things. I know there was a spell in the spell compendium that gave you the immune to crits and sneak attacks that undead have. With PFRPG getting rid of that part of the undead traits it is kinda iffy BUT as a 2nd level spell I don't see it being really overpowered as that was pretty much all it did anyways and only lasted minutes per level, the undead part was technically fluff anyways. I would talk about it with the group before doing it though so everyone knows it is working that way (and the casters can take it if they want).
9) For undead NPC's there is a feat in Libris Mortis (or whatever it was called, we called it the Book of Bad Latin) that allows undead creatures to see the light given off from living creatures. I'd use this in a similar way to Faerie Fire but on a much brighter scale (medium creatures gave off like 60' worth of light, that is stronger than a bulls eye lantern and the entire creature is giving it off). They can hide just not versus creatures with that feat, and feats are more available now. Though I am a big advocate of more advanced undead taking at Turn Resistace at least once with the extra feats.
Okay, hopefully that gives you enough to start with.