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I did bring this up in a general thread ages ago, but go not replies whatsoever. So I figure this is as good a time as any to return to it...
For the record, I love the new Polymorph/(x) Shape spells. It's been argued to death already as whether they need to be changed, so please don't bring that up. This thread is to make sure the Polymorph rules get clarified!
From what I understand () the Polymorph rules do not change anything about your base stats, abilities and so forth. All they do is add to what you currently possess.
Does this mean:
- A sorcerer with a draconic bloodline can now use Beast Shape I to turn into a boar with claws and the ability to sprout dragon wings and breathe fire?
- A draconic bloodlined sorcerer retains his natural armor bonus and resistance to energy?
- A dragon disciple / sorcerer with blindsense retains this ability?
This applies to all sorcerer bloodline abilities which specifically relate to physical form, really. Long limbs, unusual anatomy, elemental movement, just about all the capstones... I'm sure it'd affect a lot of Prestige Classes and other class abilities, too.
Also, what happens if you already possess a certain ability 'gained' by a polymorph spell? For example, if you are an abyssal sorcerer whose claws do increased damage, are magic-aligned and also do extra fire damage who polymorphs into a leopard... logic would state that you simply get better damage and so forth (). Okay, so what about air elemental bloodline's movement, 60ft. fly (average). If you used a Beast Shape III spell to turn into a darkmantle, with 30ft. fly (poor); does your fly speed take precedence? How about using Beast Shape IV to turn into a Heiracosphinx, with fly 90ft. (poor)? Do you get 90ft. (average)?
Many, many confusing things with polymorph here, and I'd love some clarification... and I'm sure the final rulebook would appreciate it too.
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I did bring this up in a general thread ages ago, but go not replies whatsoever. So I figure this is as good a time as any to return to it...
...Many, many confusing things with polymorph here, and I'd love some clarification... and I'm sure the final rulebook would appreciate it too.
Whew! I think that part of the reason you have had no replies is due in part to the shear number of actual and implied questions/comments in your post. I have to admit I passed by it at least once already. Not helping matters is the fact that has long been a troublesome spell to adjudicate and as such causes people to avoid rules discussions about it like the plague. Warranted or not when talking about the new version of the spell(s).
That being said. My thoughts, simply stated, is yes to most of what you said, and for the reason you also give, that the spell does not clarify any restrictions to the new forms. The various spell descriptions merely add abilities gained by the new form. So taking the RAW, you could end up with a hawk that can speak , cast spells and do all sorts of other things a hawk normally wouldn't be able to do. This fits into my vision of fantasy realms where sorcerers take animal form and yet retain all their powers.
As for the existing movement precedence part, I would say that you would use whichever is the most beneficial between the two movements you have. Although the newly gained form may normally be a poor maneuverability flier, like the darkmantle. Wouldn't a darkmantle infused with an air elemental's bloodline make for a better flier? I mean you have really turned into a unique darkmantle with air elemental qualities. You would fly at 60'/average.
As for the 'sphinx? Even though the RAW does not list 90'/poor as one of the available abilities in any of the , I would rule that you can take any inferior abilities as well. (ie allows for 90'/good, so you could take 90'/poor in place.) You of course could not improve upon either portion above the limits of the spell. So your choice, like the darkmantle example, would be between your two movements. Your "natural" 60'/average or your new forms 90'/poor. If you are a generous GM you could allow the player to interchange the two from one round to another round.
I would think that there would have to be a very specific set of circumstances that would need to be in place for a naturally flying caster wanting to take the form of another flying creature. Possible? Yes, but not probable I would think. But I digress...
On another side note, there doesn't seem to be any restrictions as to which creatures can procreate with one another, so a "naturally" occurring air elemental/darkmantle could happen without . Just throwing that out there. ;)
As for an abyssal leopard with flaming, aligned claws? The RAW do not state that you gain the attacks or damage associated with the new form (until you start using ). You only gain the listed qualifying abilities as well as the bonuses (if any) to AC, Str or Dex etc. You would use your normal claw attack damage from you original form (with flaming and alignment intact). You would not use the leopards damage dice for it's claw attack.
In the end, I see the class of spells used more in a disguise and/or ability gaining light rather than a combat orientated type of thing.
Of course, everything I just said could be wrong. :)
Cheers
I think the general principle is that you don't lose anything (other than obvious physical features like presence or absence of limbs, etc., I assume).
Does this mean:
- A sorcerer with a draconic bloodline can now use Beast Shape I to turn into a boar with claws and the ability to sprout dragon wings and breathe fire?
I'm not sure about the claws, but yes for the other two abilities.
- A draconic bloodlined sorcerer retains his natural armor bonus and resistance to energy?
No on the natural armor bonus (you get whatever natural armor bonus it specifies in the spell), yes on the energy resistance.
- A dragon disciple / sorcerer with blindsense retains this ability?
Yes.
Okay, so what about air elemental bloodline's movement, 60ft. fly (average). If you used a Beast Shape III spell to turn into a darkmantle, with 30ft. fly (poor); does your fly speed take precedence?
How about using Beast Shape IV to turn into a Heiracosphinx, with fly 90ft. (poor)? Do you get 90ft. (average)?
You would have two fly speeds that you could choose between
Many, many confusing things with polymorph here, and I'd love some clarification... and I'm sure the final rulebook would appreciate it too.
Yes, the rules could use some clarification.
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- A draconic bloodlined sorcerer retains his natural armor bonus and resistance to energy?No on the natural armor bonus (you get whatever natural armor bonus it specifies in the spell), yes on the energy resistance.
Yeah, I missed that one. Natural armor bonuses don't stack. Perhaps you could choose the most beneficial here as well? You are a draconic bloodline boar? ;)
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Ok, I read the thread and was about to close it, shaking my head in confusion, then realized that's the point.
I'm glad you had the exact same reaction my friend and I did when I brought this up with him whilst musing a transmutation-based sorcerer character. At least that means I'm not completely stupid, hehe. :)
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I realise it's a huge amount at once... but these are all basic, core, very easily attainable options, after all.
For the record, you adjudicated the problems basically as I would have. My questions were largely examples to prove the point I was making rather than personal issues, but Polymorph definitely needs a clean-up.
Things like fly speed and claw damage would take the higher of two values, I believe, like in the gestalt rules where you take the better of two BABs, save progressions, and whatnot. As for the natural armor bonus, the higher of the two would take precedence also, as per normal stacking rules, I believe, as there is no qualifier like in the Barkskin/Amulet of Natural Armor rules. Of course, who's to say which is better: faster speed and poorer manoueverability, or the reverse...
On a related note, I also must beg the designers: PLEASE make the rules all in the same spot, or at least a LOGICAL spot! It took me ages to realise that 1/3 the rules for a Wild Shape were in the druid class desc, 1/3 were in the specific polymorph spells and 1/3 were in the magic chapter under the descs of magic schools. Talk about a pain to correlate...