I think a new approach to the book's layout and information architecture is warranted. Things have changed a lot since the initial design decisions were made for 3.0/3.5, but Pathfinder has thus far cleaved rather close to those decisions.
Looking at something like the SORD, it occurs to me that Paizo should make a serious attempt to organize game elements into numbered steps, and to avoid page-flipping as much as possible. Looking at something like the Grapple rules, which are described in a text block, and spread over (at least) the combat and conditions sections... there's room for improvement here.
Likewise for Domains, Bloodlines, and Arcane Schools. If the base Classes in the classes chapter are to serve as a primer for newbs to that class AND as a reference for people making characters, all data relevent to only one class should be in the class section. This might be extended to the fighter-only feats being listed in the fighter class, much as Rogue talents are.
The spells section layout does not please me. I know space is at a premium, but I think the format is bland. You could do everyone a favor by color-coding the schools or classes. Flavor text and game effects should be separated wherever possible. Cascading effects should always provide a small list of all affected traits. Yes, I can do that math myself, but I'm a GM and I have 1000 other things on my mind.
You may disagree with all of these points, but I open the floor to everyone's comments on what they would like to see in the book's organization.
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I think a new approach to the book's layout and information architecture is warranted. Things have changed a lot since the initial design decisions were made for 3.0/3.5, but Pathfinder has thus far cleaved rather close to those decisions.
Looking at something like the SORD, it occurs to me that Paizo should make a serious attempt to organize game elements into numbered steps, and to avoid page-flipping as much as possible. Looking at something like the Grapple rules, which are described in a text block, and spread over (at least) the combat and conditions sections... there's room for improvement here.
Likewise for Domains, Bloodlines, and Arcane Schools. If the base Classes in the classes chapter are to serve as a primer for newbs to that class AND as a reference for people making characters, all data relevent to only one class should be in the class section. This might be extended to the fighter-only feats being listed in the fighter class, much as Rogue talents are.
The spells section layout does not please me. I know space is at a premium, but I think the format is bland. You could do everyone a favor by color-coding the schools or classes. Flavor text and game effects should be separated wherever possible. Cascading effects should always provide a small list of all affected traits. Yes, I can do that math myself, but I'm a GM and I have 1000 other things on my mind.
You may disagree with all of these points, but I open the floor to everyone's comments on what they would like to see in the book's organization.
Totally agree on all points.
Especially on the spell section layout. The lack of definition (font or otherwise) makes reading this section a nightmare. I can be looking at the correct page and still not find the spell I want. When I play casters I end up cutting and pasting my own "spellbook" together so that I can avoid the actual rulebook. This works fine as a player but as a DM, that requires a lot of prep that I would rather spend on other things.
While I (personally) have gotten used to the way Pathfinder is presenting things, I have to agree that there are some things that could be done better. Instead of integrating all rules pertaining to one aspect of the game into one heading (for example: re: the proposal that fighter feats should be integrated into the fighter class description), what I would like to see is Paizo taking a page out of Monte Cook's Ptolus book. I've never seen anything like it in terms of accessibility.
What this could mean, possibly:
Add "narrow" sidebars into the layout; into these sidebars, reference all other pages in the book that pertain to one particular rules aspect. For example, if you have the fighter class description, add the page references for fighter bonus feats into the sidebar. For polymorph spells, add the reference for the size modifier table and the polymorph subschool description. For spells that do ability damage, reference the glossary page ... and so on. This would be an incredible benefit.
I'm not so much a fan of color-coding spells by school or something - that just doesn't fit the PF style, in my opinion. What could be done, though, is to (eww) look for the few things 4e did right: use symbols to replace certain terms. For example, you might design symbols for the various spell schools, thus making it easier to differentiat at a glance.
... anyways, just my 2 cp. :-)
I was just looking at the Paladin section and noticed how it mentioned the Atonement spell, but when I went to look up Atonement, it wasn't there. It was in the web enhancement.
Worse, it's also listed as the example spell in the "Designer Notes" sidebar on page 205.
I realize that it may be an infrequently used spell, but as a matter of organization if nothing else, it's bad form for a book to reference something that's not in it. Not every player is going to have ready access to the web or a pdf viewer at the time they're reading the main RPG guide.
I was just looking at the Paladin section and noticed how it mentioned the Atonement spell, but when I went to look up Atonement, it wasn't there. It was in the web enhancement.
Worse, it's also listed as the example spell in the "Designer Notes" sidebar on page 205.
I realize that it may be an infrequently used spell, but as a matter of organization if nothing else, it's bad form for a book to reference something that's not in it. Not every player is going to have ready access to the web or a pdf viewer at the time they're reading the main RPG guide.
Relax. It's just a beta. There will be no web enhancement with less common spells and magic items for the final book - it will all be in the book.
There's other stuff in there I'd scream bloody murder over if it were in the final book - ranger bonus feats, for example, include a couple of choices that are nowhere to be found, and there's left-overs from older incarnations where this or that was changed during alpha or beta and a couple of references were forotten to be updated - but I'm quite sure that they'll thoroughly proofread and crosscheck the book so errors like that will be minimal if not avoided altogether.
IIRC, all the content that was distributed as additional PDFs will be in the core rulebook when it is finalized - so I wouldn't worry on that account :).
(edit) Darn, beaten by Kae'yoss. That's what you get for posting from the same time zone ... ;)
As a suggestion to create more space in the Spells section, what about taking the six related spells--Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Eagle's Splendor--and put them together under a heading of "Animal's Virtue" with a note that they are six separate spells? Ditto with the Mass versions. It would cut down on the same boilerplate being reproduced with tiny variations six different places and save headaches for new players who haven't yet memorized which animal is which stat.
IIRC, all the content that was distributed as additional PDFs will be in the core rulebook when it is finalized - so I wouldn't worry on that account :).
(edit) Darn, beaten by Kae'yoss. That's what you get for posting from the same time zone ... ;)
Ah, okay then.
Yeah, a color coded bar or font would be lame.
But maybe a little gem or icon for each school would be nice.
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But maybe a little gem or icon for each school would be nice.
Something like these?
But better drawn. :)
I'm not sure I would use the Conjuration icon as is (for obvious reasons). The Conjuration sub school icons are meant to be placed within the larger Conjuration icon.
Cheers
PS. FYI the 3 sub school icons you can't figure out are a whistle, mega phone and hammer & anvil. Please forgive my poor artistic skill. :)