Ideas for revising the skill list / adding component skills / increasing flexibility

[BuzzardBlaster]

I have read many of the the skill threads and I have seen several lines of discussion- too many skills, not enough skills, bring back some of the 3.5 skills, some skills are worthless, etc. The idea of sub-skills was mentioned which got me thinking about dividing up the skill list into 'primary' skills and 'component' skills, thereby putting some of the not as popular skills into the component category.

The premise would be that a GM could decide to use the 'major' skill list if she was looking for simplicity and speed of use; or the GM could choose to use the additional 'component' skill list if looking for more detail and realism. The component skills would fall within one of the primary skill categories. I think this system could potentially satisfy the camps of 'not enough skills' and 'too many skills' as well as maintain some of the skills that were abstracted out from 3.5.

If using component skills, a player would put a skill point into a major skill, which would then also either (player's choice) 1) apply a single point to *each* of the component skills within that major skill -or- 2) apply 2 points to a *single* component skill. In this way, the player has a lot more flexibility and could become a specialist in a specific component skill relatively quickly. This could make some of the lesser used skills more viable.

Some of the major skills (and many of the most useful) do not have sensible component skills and I will list those first. These skills would be handled just as before. Here is the suggested skill list (major skills in bold, component skills listed under each major skill):

Concentration (Con) -or- Spellcraft (Int)
Disable Device (Dex)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Perform (Cha)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex)
Use Magic Device (Cha)

Acrobatics (Dex)
Balance
Fly
Tumble

Craft, Martial (Int)
Armorsmithing
Bowmaking
Weaponsmithing

Craft, General (Int)
Alchemy
Device
Trapmaking

Deception (Cha)
Bluff
Disguise
Gaming

Influence (Cha)
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Intimidate

Insight (Wis)
Heal
Sense Motive
Survival

Knowledge, Environment (Int)
Dungeoneering
Geography
Nature

Knowledge, Mathematics (Int)
Appraise
Commerce
Engineering

Knowledge, Sage (Int)
Local
History
Nobility

Knowledge, Supernatural (Int)
Arcana
Planes
Religion

Legerdemain (Dex)
Escape Artist
Sleight of Hand
Stealth

Linguistics (Int)
Decipher Script
Forgery
Speak Languages

Mobility (Str)
Climb
Jump
Swim

Perception (Wis)
Listen
Smell
Spot

Note that I prefer keeping Concentration as a separate skill and nixing Spellcraft (since Arcana Knowledge is basically Spellcraft anyway and Concentration was the only Con base skill check.) Also, note that I had to add in a couple of additional component skills to round out the list- Gaming, and Commerce Knowledge (others may work instead such as Ventriloquism in lieu of Gaming.) I debated whether to make the martial Craft skills all major skills. I also debated about putting Stealth and Heal into the major category as well.

Examples: (GM is using the component skills)

Player A adds 1 skill point to Perception, and then chooses to add 1 point each to Listen, Smell, and Spot

Player B adds 1 skill point to Mobility, and then chooses to specialize by adding 2 points to Climb

Thoughts, ideas?

[cliff]

I like the idea a lot, but I think it's done for you already in some ways in that Stealth is a combo of Move Silently and Hide. Hear me out.

In the Stargate SG1 RPG, languages were huge. Knowing Russian, German, Latin and Old English might be the diggerence to translating a key manuscript or not which migth mean gatting back through the Stargate or not. But character didn't need to speak German to translate an alien manuscript. They only needed it to speak German. The designers came up with a plan in the eratta.

Linguistics was to be developed as an umbrella skill made up of the sum of all other Language ranks. In addition, the decided that only four ranks were even really necessary given the vast number of Earth languages that there were, not to mention alien languages and combinations of them. 1=competance, 2=conversant, 3=fluent, 4=native became the ranks needed, and Liguistics was used when the languages wasn't specific but could be deciphered as an amalgam, summinh up the languages used in the deciphering. A script carved into a wall might need to be worked out with Gaelic, Latin, and German, even though the character had other skills. Only those language ranks would add up at that time to function as the skill "Linguistics."

So say I want to hide, but there's no real need to be moving quietly (say in an ambush). I'd only need to roll my Hide skills to do that. Say on another occasion, I need to move past a closed door so being seen isn't an issue. I'd only need to roll my Move Silently. But if I needed to sneak around the perimiter of a castle, avoiding the eyes of guards on duty as well as being quiet, my Move Silently and Hide ranks add together to function as Stealth.

Perhaps the list could be reworked that way, offering umbrella skills that are derived from all of the 3.5 skills, some of which would simply be the amalgam skill, such as Stealth, and others may yet fit under even braoder or narrower categories.

Oh, and Rope Use should be under Craft General. :)

[BuzzardBlaster]

cliff wrote:

So say I want to hide, but there's no real need to be moving quietly (say in an ambush). I'd only need to roll my Hide skills to do that. Say on another occasion, I need to move past a closed door so being seen isn't an issue. I'd only need to roll my Move Silently. But if I needed to sneak around the perimiter of a castle, avoiding the eyes of guards on duty as well as being quiet, my Move Silently and Hide ranks add together to function as Stealth.

You could easily make Stealth a major skill with component skills Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, but to keep consistency with the suggested system we would need to come up with a third component skill (maybe Pass without Trace, or something similar.) Also, it would thee be necessary to add a component skill to the Legerdemain category since Stealth was pulled out of that category.

[4EHater]

I would definitely say put more zing into Craft and Profession skills. Thanks to the DMG2, my players put ranks in Profession for the intriguing purpose of running a business. They get a business partner and continue adventuring. It's also a good place for a PC to head back to to stock up on the profit he earned and continue his adventuring.

The only reason people don't take Craft unless its combat-related (weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, trapmaking, poisonmaking), and specifically no Profession skills, is because neither appears to do much for a PC because the mechanics and details aren't there. That's what makes it boring and non-adventuring related. Simply jazz them up. Add great detail to them and even greater detail to common ones such as Profession (herbalist) and Profession (astrologer). State which ones grant synergy bonuses to which skills, that always helps.

Now when that Wizard is busy writing down new spells, the PCs with Craft or Profession have something interesting to do in the meantime.

[toyrobots]

Legerdemain is just french for Sleight of Hand. I think you need a better name for the stealth category... deception maybe?

[BuzzardBlaster]

toyrobots wrote:

Legerdemain is just french for Sleight of Hand. I think you need a better name for the stealth category... deception maybe?

Yes, you are correct and I could not come up with a great name for that category. 'Deception' I used for the other category that includes Bluff & Disguise. The solution just hit me- change the stealth related category to 'Deception' and the Bluff/Disguise related skills category to 'Trickery':

Deception (Dex)
Escape Artist
Sleight of Hand
Stealth

Trickery (Cha)
Bluff
Disguise
Gaming

[cliff]

BuzzardBlaster wrote:

cliff wrote:

So say I want to hide, but there's no real need to be moving quietly (say in an ambush). I'd only need to roll my Hide skills to do that. Say on another occasion, I need to move past a closed door so being seen isn't an issue. I'd only need to roll my Move Silently. But if I needed to sneak around the perimiter of a castle, avoiding the eyes of guards on duty as well as being quiet, my Move Silently and Hide ranks add together to function as Stealth.

You could easily make Stealth a major skill with component skills Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, but to keep consistency with the suggested system we would need to come up with a third component skill (maybe Pass without Trace, or something similar.) Also, it would thee be necessary to add a component skill to the Legerdemain category since Stealth was pulled out of that category.

I'd suggest Spot.

It's the opposite of the other two, but still somehow fits nicely under the "Stealth" heading to me. Fight Stealth with Stealth...

[cliff]

cliff wrote:

BuzzardBlaster wrote:

cliff wrote:

So say I want to hide, but there's no real need to be moving quietly (say in an ambush). I'd only need to roll my Hide skills to do that. Say on another occasion, I need to move past a closed door so being seen isn't an issue. I'd only need to roll my Move Silently. But if I needed to sneak around the perimiter of a castle, avoiding the eyes of guards on duty as well as being quiet, my Move Silently and Hide ranks add together to function as Stealth.

You could easily make Stealth a major skill with component skills Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, but to keep consistency with the suggested system we would need to come up with a third component skill (maybe Pass without Trace, or something similar.) Also, it would thee be necessary to add a component skill to the Legerdemain category since Stealth was pulled out of that category.

I'd suggest Spot.

It's the opposite of the other two, but still somehow fits nicely under the "Stealth" heading to me. Fight Stealth with Stealth...

It won't let me edit...Hmm..

I'd also say that sticking to a 1:3 formula is a nice idea, but some of the skills may not fit that nicely. I'm not so sure that I like the idea of a Gaming skill, for example, because a joust is a game, technically. I think that's jut something for player elaboration by using existing skills (Bluff, Sleight of Hand, etc.)

[fanguad]

I really like this idea, though I don't think it has much of a chance of making it into Pathfinder RPG.

My personal favorite skill system was Shadowrun's (3rd edition, I haven't played 4th), which did something similar. Each main skill had specializations. You could put points in either the main or the specialization, but the specialization was cheaper.