Great Cleave and Whilwind Attack

[Kaville]

I was just looking over a few feats because of another thread and I noticed something that I found a little strange having played 3.5 for so long, and only getting into 3P only more recently. It seems that both of these feats do almost the same thing, only one has a very slight chance of failure.

Great Cleave (Combat)
You can strike a number of adjacent foes with a single
mighty swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack
bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee attack
against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage
normally and can make an additional attack (at the same
bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and
within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks
against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they
are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe
more than once in a round with this feat.

Whirlwind Attack (Combat)
You can become a dervish, striking out at every foe
within
reach.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge,
Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can
give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee
attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent
within reach.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities.

Especially now that CE has been nerfed for most melee characters, why make two feats that are nearly identical, but have one have prereqs that don't matter for the feat itself? What would be a good fix for these feats? I know that in 3E Great cleave rarely if ever saw use, and usually only near the end of the fight, but whirlwind saw use in most fights with more then two enemies. Could we let whirlwind allow you to keep your extra attacks after the whirl?

[Snorter]

Why make two feats that do a similar thing?

So melee types can get there by two different routes.

You can make multiple attacks/round either as "Raaahhh, Hulk Smash!!" or "My blades are like a web of steel".

[kitenerd]

Kaville wrote:

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities.

Clearly this is intended to say "you lose any bonus attacks or extra attacks" isn't it?

The way it is written you would loose stuff like Weapons Focus, Weapons Finesse, Greater Weapons Focus, etc. etc. etc - Using this feat would mean recalculating everything...

Should i move this to typos?

As for the difference in feats - they apply to different builds of characters... to me Whirlwind is superior... but your average beater might not clear the intelligence hurdle

A

[Kaville]

I understand that the two feats are for two different builds, but the fact that in many circumstances, they are exactly the same. What feats in the pathfinder book overlap like these do? only ones I could find that were close, were, deadly aim, and power attack, both of which apply to very different situations, but are fundamentally the same.

Only way I could think of to make them different was to make great cleave into the 3.0 feat circle kick, without the unarmed requirement.

The Cleave feats would read:

Cleave [Combat]
Preq: Str 13, Power Attack
On the first hit you make during your turn, you gain an additional attack at the same bonus against a different opponent in your reach.

Great Cleave [Combat]
Preq: Str 13, Power attack, Cleave, BAB +6
During a full attack, you may gain an extra cleave attack with each attack of your normal attack routine that hits. You do not gain extra attacks from the hits scored by the bonus attacks gained by this feat.

I'm not sure if that would be the right wording or not, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.

[Pendagast]

Kaville wrote:

I understand that the two feats are for two different builds, but the fact that in many circumstances, they are exactly the same. What feats in the pathfinder book overlap like these do? only ones I could find that were close, were, deadly aim, and power attack, both of which apply to very different situations, but are fundamentally the same.

Only way I could think of to make them different was to make great cleave into the 3.0 feat circle kick, without the unarmed requirement.

The Cleave feats would read:

Cleave [Combat]
Preq: Str 13, Power Attack
On the first hit you make during your turn, you gain an additional attack at the same bonus against a different opponent in your reach.

Great Cleave [Combat]
Preq: Str 13, Power attack, Cleave, BAB +6
During a full attack, you may gain an extra cleave attack with each attack of your normal attack routine that hits. You do not gain extra attacks from the hits scored by the bonus attacks gained by this feat.

I'm not sure if that would be the right wording or not, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.

As to the above, Bonus attack and attack bonus are two different things.

You still get all your attack bonuses (that is to say anything that gives you a + to attack) but you forego all your addtional attack from any other source (bonus attacks) when using whirlwind

For Cleave,you dont get to attack as long as you dont miss.

Regular cleave lets you get one more attack off of your first hit (similar to rapid shot)
Great cleave lets you have one more attack,for every already existing attack you have, aslong as the existing attack hits and you have a target that is not the orginal target.

Example, 7th level fighter with a +7/+2 fighting sword and board.
Has the feats of cleave and great cleave.

He is surrounded by four hobgoblins.

His first attack (+7) hits, he uses cleave to smack the hobgoblin standing next to the first hobgoblin, He then swings with his second (iterative attack) (+2) and hits the third hobgoblin (or the first or second if they are still alive) ....this is where I get confused.
Does great cleave allow an attack (in addtion to cleave) at the +7 bonus, or the +2 bonus?
Does it also allow an addtional attack at the +2 bonus if it allows an attack at the +7?
You cant get an extra attack however, using great cleave if a CLEAVE attack hit, only an original attack.

The way I THINK GReat cleave works is:
Cleave gives that 7th level fighter one additional attack on the +7 AND one additional attack on the +2, assuming both hit.
GREAT cleave give a further addtional attack (in addtion to the cleave) on the +7 and the +2 (assuming the original attack hits, but the cleave also has to hit)

So effectively great cleave could TRIPLE the attacks a fighter has as long as his hits make contact in succession, AND there are enough targets to continue hitting.
But really there oly needs to be two bad guys (so the attacks would alternate)
BUT Does great cleave attack need to land on a completely different target than both the cleave or the original attack?
Or does it go in a fight with two hobgoblins.
Attack lands on 1st hobgoblin, cleave lands on second hobgoblin, great cleave lands on first hobgoblin, or does there need to be a third?

But you definately dont keep getting attacks as long you you keep hitting.

[Tholas]

Pendagast wrote:

As to the above, Bonus attack and attack bonus are two different things.
You still get all your attack bonuses (that is to say anything that gives you a + to attack) but you forego all your addtional attack from any other source (bonus attacks) when using whirlwind

Indeed.

Pendagast wrote:

Great cleave lets you have one more attack,for every already existing attack you have, aslong as the existing attack hits and you have a target that is not the orginal target.

No, Great Cleave is defined as "As a full-round action, make a single melee attack against a foe within reach."

Effectively that means Great Cleave is inferior to Whirlwind Attack as it only lets you make additional attacks when you hit your current target and the next target must be adjacent to the one just hit. When you consider enlargement effects and the new feat Lunge Great Cleave looses big time against Whirlwind Attack. Add the Spiked Chain and you have a maelstrom of hurt.

Personally I'd like to see Cleave/Great Cleave changed a bit in the direction of the Sweeping Strike ability from the War Mind.

Pendagast wrote:

But really there only needs to be two bad guys (so the attacks would alternate)

You forgot to take the "You cannot attack an individual foe more than once in a round with this feat." into account.

[Pendagast]

QUOTE]
You forgot to take the "You cannot attack an individual foe more than once in a round with this feat." into account.

"with this feat"

1st attack would be with the ordinary attack,
second attack (cleave) would be on another adjacent foe.
3rd attack would be on the first person (who was NOT attacked "with this feat" yet)

Edit: I was thinking about this, since all three attacks stem from the same original attack bonus, they would in affect be the same "feat" even though you've spent different feats to get them.

So you would need three different, adjacent foes to effectively utilize the combo.

I kinda makes great cleave not fully worth taking.

In 3.5 I always saw the great cleave as ye old 1e version of "you can attack 1HD creatures as many times as you have levels, but you cant attack the same creature twice" rule. (so 10th level fighters attacking a mess of goblins got one strike per goblin, so they could dispatch the weaklings faster, and it made them nasty during wars)
This is how I saw the cleave/great cleave.

Now it seems cleave/great cleave is more of street fighter combo.