Currently the feat "Agile Manuevers" allows a dex based character to use their Dex modifier for their CMB, but would a highly dexterous player really need special training for that? The way I see it, if you grew up quick and spry, you aren't going to suddenly become lame and useless when someone tries to grab you or trip you. Your nimble body can duck, step back, jump over the leg swing, etc. It should be a natural thing. I personably believe that CMB should allow a person to either use their STR or DEX mod in the equation, whichever is higher, and let the rogues and wizards out there not have to waste a feat slot for something that should be natural.
Currently the feat "Agile Manuevers" allows a dex based character to use their Dex modifier for their CMB, but would a highly dexterous player really need special training for that? The way I see it, if you grew up quick and spry, you aren't going to suddenly become lame and useless when someone tries to grab you or trip you. Your nimble body can duck, step back, jump over the leg swing, etc. It should be a natural thing. I personably believe that CMB should allow a person to either use their STR or DEX mod in the equation, whichever is higher, and let the rogues and wizards out there not have to waste a feat slot for something that should be natural.
I'd be happier if Weapon Finesse included Combat Maneuvers. I don't think the "should be natural" argument works for me, but that a feat which grants use of dex in combat to replace strength on attack rolls should also grant that use during combat maneuvers.
But, I can see that that might make the WF feat overpowered and that it would be more prudent to break it into two separate feats.
Currently the feat "Agile Manuevers" allows a dex based character to use their Dex modifier for their CMB, but would a highly dexterous player really need special training for that? The way I see it, if you grew up quick and spry, you aren't going to suddenly become lame and useless when someone tries to grab you or trip you. Your nimble body can duck, step back, jump over the leg swing, etc. It should be a natural thing. I personably believe that CMB should allow a person to either use their STR or DEX mod in the equation, whichever is higher, and let the rogues and wizards out there not have to waste a feat slot for something that should be natural.I'd be happier if Weapon Finesse included Combat Maneuvers. I don't think the "should be natural" argument works for me, but that a feat which grants use of dex in combat to replace strength on attack rolls should also grant that use during combat maneuvers.
But, I can see that that might make the WF feat overpowered and that it would be more prudent to break it into two separate feats.
Weapon Finesse is fine the way it is since it is specialized training to use 'finesse' when using a weapon one would naturally use using their strength. But when it comes to CMB, I think it should be what comes natural.
How about this:
To perform a Combat Maneuver, a player rolls d20+STR+BAB+Applicable Modifiers against an opponents CMB Defense, which will be d20+STR or DEX+BAB+Applicable Modifiers, this way a player can use DEX for their defense DC but not for offensive DC. Then the Weapon Finesse Feat can be changed to also allow a player to use DEX to perform offensive Combat Maneuvers in addition to using DEX with their light weapons. What do you think about that?
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I think Agile Maneuvers is fine as is. You get to use your DEX bonus both offensively and defensively. Mixed with Defensive Combat Training, this makes for a pretty powerful combo.
I play a bard with Agile Maneuvers. I'm fine with him not having Weapon Finesse, as he's got a pitiful damage output, so Agile Maneuvers only applying to combat maneuvers actually forces me to use the bard as he should be used: as a support character (i.e. tripping and disarming folks with his whip, mostly)
I think Agile Maneuvers is fine as is. You get to use your DEX bonus both offensively and defensively. Mixed with Defensive Combat Training, this makes for a pretty powerful combo.
I play a bard with Agile Maneuvers. I'm fine with him not having Weapon Finesse, as he's got a pitiful damage output, so Agile Maneuvers only applying to combat maneuvers actually forces me to use the bard as he should be used: as a support character (i.e. tripping and disarming folks with his whip, mostly)
Are you playing a Bard fighter who can afford using a lot of feats up?
What I am saying is that DEX should apply to defensive combat maneuver DCs to begin with, since it should be a touch attack to perform a maneuver against someone in the first place; and then Weapon Finesse can encompass using light weapons offensively, including in offensive CMBs.
I don't know if that's helping this thread, but i ruled a long time ago that Weapon Finesse was a free feat, available to everyone, with no restriction. Basically i consider it as a combat option to fight with Dexterity instead of Strength.
My players never complained about it, even if it also serves many monsters against them.
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I think Agile Maneuvers is fine as is. You get to use your DEX bonus both offensively and defensively. Mixed with Defensive Combat Training, this makes for a pretty powerful combo.
I play a bard with Agile Maneuvers. I'm fine with him not having Weapon Finesse, as he's got a pitiful damage output, so Agile Maneuvers only applying to combat maneuvers actually forces me to use the bard as he should be used: as a support character (i.e. tripping and disarming folks with his whip, mostly)
Are you playing a Bard fighter who can afford using a lot of feats up?
What I am saying is that DEX should apply to defensive combat maneuver DCs to begin with, since it should be a touch attack to perform a maneuver against someone in the first place; and then Weapon Finesse can encompass using light weapons offensively, including in offensive CMBs.
Nah... I play a straight bard. I found that the dodge, mobility, agile maneuvers, defensive combat maneuver was the best thing for the bard overall... (he's mostly there to buff others, so there's no use giving him metamagic feats, spell DC raise feats, or any spellcasting feat for that matter). Giving him melee/combat feats aimed at protecting his behind seems a better option.
As for wrapping some of the feats you mentioned together... I don't know. PRPG charactes now get a feat at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc. There's more feats to spend now.
Moreover, people seem to forget that you can break out of a grapple with an Escape Artist check (DC 10 + opponent’s CMB), in lieu of an opposed grapple check (DC 15 + opponent's CMB)... so max your ranks in Escape Artist and you get an effective + 5. Also, a 20 is now always a success, and a 1 is always a failure...
I agree. Weapon finesse should include combat maneuvers. However combat maneuvers should not simply let you use your dex. Just like attack rolls do not let you use your dex without a feat.
I'd be happier if Weapon Finesse included Combat Maneuvers. I don't think the "should be natural" argument works for me, but that a feat which grants use of dex in combat to replace strength on attack rolls should also grant that use during combat maneuvers.
That's what I am saying, DEX should be an option to apply to a persons Combat Maneuver Defensive DC since in 3.5 to make a combat manuever was a touch attack to begin with, so it would make sense to have it be that way in Pathfinder's modified special combat actions rule. I still think you should take a feat to have DEX used offensively in your CMB, and Weapon Finesse can cover that instead of Agile Manuevers.
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Actually, useing the Manuever AC, mentioned in the combat thread. Strength AND dex are taken into account for defence. And since M-AC uses a basic atack roll then Weapon dinesse means you can atack with dex also. Alot of peope have tried it and think that it is a far better system than CMB and i fully expect it to make the final cut in August.
Moreover, people seem to forget that you can break out of a grapple with an Escape Artist check (DC 10 + opponent’s CMB), in lieu of an opposed grapple check (DC 15 + opponent's CMB)... so max your ranks in Escape Artist and you get an effective + 5. Also, a 20 is now always a success, and a 1 is always a failure...
Well, except on Skill checks (the automatic success and automatic failure is only for Attack rolls, Save rolls, and CMB rolls). Unless you are speaking of 'rolling a 20 against the Tarrasque to escape from a grapple', in which case I agree with you.