So my last session included a lot of CMB rolls, the characters are 2nd level and had to play a game called knivesies to persuade a local crime lord to release some important information. knivesies basically consists of two guys trying to push each other of a table so a lot of bull rushing, grappling and tripping ensued.
The groups swashbuckler (a slightly updated version of my own creation) volunteered for the game, he had the agile maneuvers feat, a dexterity of 16, and a base attack of +2 giving him a base CMB of +5, his opponents for the most part consisted of human warrior 2, with 15 strength and a CMB of +4 and a DC of 19, so the swashbuckler needed a 14 or better to succeed in his maneuvers against the thugs.
None of the participants had any of the improved feats. I played the swashbuckler through four matches of knivsies, before I decided that the crime lord was satisfied. With some buffs from the party cleric the swashbuckler came victorious (but only barely so) from all the matches, succeeding in about 1/3rd of his CMB rolls. I think the CMB mechanic worked smoothly, it was simple and elegant, and with just the right amount of risk IMO. I've seen a lot of posters on these forums complain that the DC is to high, but I personally think it is just about right, although perhaps the bonus from the improved feats should be increased to +3 to give those who's really invested in these things a slightly better chance of success.
While the others were distracted by the games, another player, a sorcerer, decided to try to free a caged pseudodragon the crime lord kept as a pet in the same room. To aid him he used an item the party owned which could create a major illusion once per day, the plan was to cloak the cage and the area out of the chamber with an illusion so as to appear undisturbed while the sorcerer snuck out with the cage.
I had to use a fair amount of improvisation for this however, as I found the descriptions for the spells and the illusion effects to be somewhat diffuse. Could illusions grant any bonuses to certain skill checks?, Can you cloak sound with a figment, it says that you can't change the sounds, but can you make another sound that overwhelms say footsteps or a conversation f.ex? Can you hide within a figment making yourself invisible unless someone interacts with the figment? I think the rules for illusions should be more clearer, and it would certainly help with an example or two.
I had to use a fair amount of improvisation for this however, as I found the descriptions for the spells and the illusion effects to be somewhat diffuse. Could illusions...
For answers to this, you have to look up the descriptions of the different illusion types. Figments create their own objects, but cannot alter the appearance of other objects (those are glamours). This means while you can create the illusion of a person, you can't make someone look like someone else. Nor can you make a door look like a wall, or a stream of lava look like a cool river. Whatever you make has to remain physically seperate from something else. As I play, generally, if a character who is aware of the illusion physically enters the bounds of the illusion, either the illusion pops, or observers get an automatic saving throw to disbelieve (as though they had interacted).
However, this does allow for some wiggle room. In the case of the door, while you cannot make it into a wall, you can put an illusory object in front of it, screening it from sight. A river of lava could be covered by an illusory wall or a building of some sort (in this example, characters would certainly still feel the heat from the lava). You could generate an illusory crowd of people to hide in, or a cloud of feathers
In your specific example, the sorcerer would have to take down the cage before replacing it with another illusory one. He would also have to come up with a way to hide the cage. To 'overlay' the room with an illusory one, effectively rendering everything in the room the sorcerer did not want seen invisible would exceed the bounds of the spell.
Edit: I should revise this somewhat, creatures faced with proof that something isn't real need no saving throw to perceive the figment as an illusion. Therefore, moving into a figment to hide would automatically cause someone who witnessed this to disbelieve it.
-DM Steve
I had to use a fair amount of improvisation for this however, as I found the descriptions for the spells and the illusion effects to be somewhat diffuse. Could illusions...For answers to this, you have to look up the descriptions of the different illusion types. Figments create their own objects, but cannot alter the appearance of other objects (those are glamours). This means while you can create the illusion of a person, you can't make someone look like someone else. Nor can you make a door look like a wall, or a stream of lava look like a cool river. Whatever you make has to remain physically seperate from something else. As I play, generally, if a character who is aware of the illusion physically enters the bounds of the illusion, either the illusion pops, or observers get an automatic saving throw to disbelieve (as though they had interacted).
However, this does allow for some wiggle room. In the case of the door, while you cannot make it into a wall, you can put an illusory object in front of it, screening it from sight. A river of lava could be covered by an illusory wall or a building of some sort (in this example, characters would certainly still feel the heat from the lava). You could generate an illusory crowd of people to hide in, or a cloud of feathers
In your specific example, the sorcerer would have to take down the cage before replacing it with another illusory one. He would also have to come up with a way to hide the cage. To 'overlay' the room with an illusory one, effectively rendering everything in the room the sorcerer did not want seen invisible would exceed the bounds of the spell.
Edit: I should revise this somewhat, creatures faced with proof that something isn't real need no saving throw to perceive the figment as an illusion. Therefore, moving into a figment to hide would automatically cause someone who witnessed this to disbelieve it.
-DM Steve
I did read through the descriptions for various illusions, but as I read it one could create an illusion of say a room or even parts of a room to hide behind with a figment, but one would of course gain a save as one interacted with the illusion. In this case I ruled that interacted meant you had to touch or otherwise physically interact with the figment to get a save, but perhaps I were a bit to liberal when it came to the party's use of the illusion.
I couldn't find any restrictions in the descriptions of figments or the major image spell that you were restricted to creating a single object with these kinds of spells, and while you couldn't specifically have the cage look like something else I couldn't see any reasons why you can't create a screen to hide behind, a screen that looked exactly like an untouched version of the room f.ex, you didn't exactly alter the items in the room you just hid them. I can see this as stretching it a bit though.
I did read through the descriptions for various...
The problem here is that in the example you're citing, it wasn't a room that was already there. It was an entirely illusory room. In your case, the player was attempting to make a pre-existing room appear different.
You're right, an illusion doesn't restrict itself to one object. It's as many objects as you'd like inside the space alloted. But altering a room to make the original contents invisible would not work. Since you're altering the perception of items, it by default becomes a glamour. You could add new contents to the room, however, as long as they didn't change the sensory characteristics (touch, taste, appearance, feel, smell) of the room's preexisting contents.
-GM Steve
This is what the Beta document has to say about figments:I did read through the descriptions for various...The problem here is that in the example you're citing, it wasn't a room that was already there. It was an entirely illusory room. In your case, the player was attempting to make a pre-existing room appear different.
You're right, an illusion doesn't restrict itself to one object. It's as many objects as you'd like inside the space alloted. But altering a room to make the original contents invisible would not work. Since you're altering the perception of items, it by default becomes a glamour. You could add new contents to the room, however, as long as they didn't change the sensory characteristics (touch, taste, appearance, feel, smell) of the room's preexisting contents.
-GM Steve
I guess this is the part you are referring toFigment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something
else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate
intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language
you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot
speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it). Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide
protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
I get it that you can't use figments to make something seem different, but what about hiding the reality behind an illusionary screen?
I thought of it more as a television screen showing the same room, so it didn't actually alter the appearance of anything in the room, just screening the room. This is what I want clarified in the descriptions for figments, can you create such a screen at all? I think it might be pushing it a bit to far yes, that's why I came up with this thread in the first place. I told my player he couldn't actually alter the appearance of anything in the room, that's when he came up with the screening scheme.
This is just me speaking personally now, but ultimately I think that might fail. The person making the screen would have to understand the perspective involved in making everything appear 3 dimensional even though it was a 2D projection. He would likely have to have a perspective on the room that would allow him to correctly depict it on a flat plane. The illusion would have to be "aimed" at its target. Anyone else at a different position on that side of the room would perceive the projection as flat, and the objects in the room as disproportional, much like a mural or painting would look flat when viewed at an angle, but in proper perspective when approached from the front.
In other words, it's unlikely to work.
-Steve
This is just me speaking personally now, but ultimately I think that might fail. The person making the screen would have to understand the perspective involved in making everything appear 3 dimensional even though it was a 2D projection. He would likely have to have a perspective on the room that would allow him to correctly depict it on a flat plane. The illusion would have to be "aimed" at its target. Anyone else at a different position on that side of the room would perceive the projection as flat, and the objects in the room as disproportional, much like a mural or painting would look flat when viewed at an angle, but in proper perspective when approached from the front.
In other words, it's unlikely to work.
-Steve
In this particular case all potential witnesses were distracted and would see the screen from the same angle, but I do think this use of a figment was perhaps stretching it a bit.