Thought on why I don't like to play low level Wiz / Sor


Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard

Dark Archive

There has been a lot of discussion on this board about why playing a low-level Wizard or Sorcerer is not fun, usually dealing with low hit points and easy death. My contention is that it is not fun because they expend themselves too fast in adventures then become a kind of liability.

I mean, Wizards and Sorcerers are tons of fun starting at about level 5 and up. Before that though, especially at levels 1-3, you blow all your cool spells in one or two encounters then its protection mode, where the rest of the team needs to protect him.

Other examples: having Mage Armor be 1 hour/level has never been cool, as it is too short to save a low level Wizard in a later battle. And Summon Monster, 1 round/level, is a joke at low levels. Casting these spells just depletes you way too fast. So in the end, after one good fight you are the gimp hiding at the back of the group.

when this happens, pretty much everyone else has a very active role in an adventure, and the low level spell caster's player gets bored, and heads for the kitchen looking for Mountain Dew. It is the main reason why I try not to be the spellcaster. Even a Cleric is more fun, as when the spells deplete he is still a good fighter.

Solutions? More castings at low level? More low level bonus castings based on ability? Maybe less spell slots, but they can be refreshed after a short rest (one hour?).

More castings at low level might be best, as it could even out as it goes up. I don’t think keeping the mathematical relationship as in the rules as written is important, as it breaks down at Wiz 19-20. In the end, low levels are more hardy but mid to higher levels are mostly the same. Here is an example of the altered Spells Per Day table:

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 3
2 4 4
3 4 4 1
4 4 4 2
5 4 4 2 1
6 4 4 3 2
7 4 4 3 2 1
8 4 4 3 3 2
9 4 4 4 3 2 1
10 4 4 4 3 3 2
11 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
12 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
13 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
14 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
15 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
16 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
17 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Don't get me wrong, I think Pathfinder has taken the right approach to making the two classes more livable. Having an at will attack like the Sorcerer I just made up, with an Elemental (Fire) Ray is far better than pulling out the sling I usually would be stuck with. (Of course, human Wizards and Sorcerers can adopt a Crossbow as his martial weapon and do like 1d10!) Also, the cantrips are reusable is good, as things like Daze and Flare can make a real difference to a low level fight; also the ability to at will Detect Magic takes away my contention that Wizards and Sorcerers should do that as a class ability, like a Paladin detects evil. I have used a d6 for Wiz and Sor for years now, and that is a good improvement.


That would be a good solution if, and only if you:

1. Hit some of the low level spells that can crush an entire encounter (sleep, color spray, etc.) with a big heavy nerf bat.

2. Nerf high level casting in general.

With what you have casters will dominate the rest of the group at ALL levels instead of just the middle and high levels.

The Exchange

Daztur wrote:

1. Hit some of the low level spells that can crush an entire encounter (sleep, color spray, etc.) with a big heavy nerf bat.

Yes, I think it has to be said that while Mage Armor and Summon Monster might be poor choices for a 1st level wizard, there are spells available (above) that are much better.

I like the fact that wizards are fragile - it makes them fun to play.


brock wrote:
Daztur wrote:


I like the fact that wizards are fragile - it makes them fun to play.

fun when you have a great team to count on

but when your team is split up or the figthers dont care as long as they can kill something your first levels are not so fun
detect magic at will irritates other players more than anything

Grand Lodge

S
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No idea how to react to this topic.


In my opinion, at will cantrips, school powers and bloodlines have addressed very well this "problem". Not to mention the TON of extra hp due to favored class and d6... and if human, the weapon competence...

Dark Archive

brock wrote:
Daztur wrote:

1. Hit some of the low level spells that can crush an entire encounter (sleep, color spray, etc.) with a big heavy nerf bat.

Yes, I think it has to be said that while Mage Armor and Summon Monster might be poor choices for a 1st level wizard, there are spells available (above) that are much better.

But why not make them better. At first level one or two hits will kill a Wizard. He needs a marge armor. And by the time the duration for Summon Monster improves, you can summon a much better monster.


Neil Phillips wrote:
brock wrote:
Daztur wrote:

1. Hit some of the low level spells that can crush an entire encounter (sleep, color spray, etc.) with a big heavy nerf bat.

Yes, I think it has to be said that while Mage Armor and Summon Monster might be poor choices for a 1st level wizard, there are spells available (above) that are much better.
But why not make them better. At first level one or two hits will kill a Wizard. He needs a marge armor. And by the time the duration for Summon Monster improves, you can summon a much better monster.

Agreed.

One solution that works for me is that I already have houserules in play making it possible for casters to apply metamagic feats without using higher level slots. This makes Extend Spell a viable feat for level 1 casters. 2 hours/level on Mage Armor and 2 rounds/level on Summon makes them more useful.

Maybe a cool rule would be one that allows existing buffs to be temporarily suspended. They could be reinstated later with a swift action. So pop your mage armor, use it for a fight, then suspend it. Next fight, use a swift action to reactivate it. Number of suspensions allowed per day would be limited, like say, 1/day per 3 levels or something.

And I agree, all the summon spells are too short. It should be something like 1 round/level +1 round/INT (or WIS for Summon Nature's Ally).

The Exchange

DM_Blake wrote:


And I agree, all the summon spells are too short. It should be something like 1 round/level +1 round/INT (or WIS for Summon Nature's Ally).

You could do the same thing with the duration of buffs.


The problem isn't the number of spells a wizard gets it is the seemingly set in stone notion that spells have to increase in power at the same rate. So in order to make sure summon monster isn't too powerful at 7th level it has a duration of 1/lvl, same with mage armor and many others.

A different, perhaps better approach would be to institute some type of diminishing returns, so mage armor lasts for say 3hrs/lvl at lvl 1-2, and then 1 additional hour for levels 3-5 and none after that.

thus it looks something like this

level-duration
1-3hrs
2-6hrs
3-7hrs
4-8hrs
5+-9hrs

You could do something similar for Summon Monster and others


Neil Phillips wrote:


Other examples: having Mage Armor be 1 hour/level has never been cool, as it is too short to save a low level Wizard in a later battle. And Summon Monster, 1 round/level, is a joke at low levels. Casting these spells just depletes you way too fast. So in the end, after one good fight you are the gimp hiding at the back of the group.

As previously stated, the "easiest fix" I can conceive is to have spells' duration start from something.

This base duration could be flat (as duration = 3 rounds + 1/level) or based on the caster key ability (as duration = number of rounds equal to the wizard's INT bonus + 1 per wizard level)

As a "non-destructive" add-on, it should be easy enough to implement.

'findel

Shadow Lodge

Laurefindel wrote:

As previously stated, the "easiest fix" I can conceive is to have spells' duration start from something.

This base duration could be flat (as duration = 3 rounds + 1/level) or based on the caster key ability (as duration = number of rounds equal to the wizard's INT bonus + 1 per wizard level)

I like the idea of the base duration + something. I wouldn't go off of Ability Mod though, because that can really unbalance different casters. Or rather, maybe go off of an Ability not realated to casting, like Con, (just so casters can't put everything into Int/Cha and Dex).

The Exchange

I just wanted to share something-
Gnome sorcerer1 with a 20 cha= 5 1st level spells a day, and an at-will attack of some sort(elemental ray is real nice for this). I can cast the at-will 100+ times a day and at Sorcerer1 it is equal to any 1st level spell. Add in a gillion cantrips. Why do casters need more spells than that! Mage armor is fine as is, an arcanist is doing a decent amount of ranged warfare and probably has Dexterity as a priority, sitting them in the normal AC range of 14. Fighters run into front line situations at 1st level with about 16-18 usually. Use mage armor smarter is probably a better solution so you have it at the BBEG end fight.
HP for that gnome sorcerer- Con is usually on par with Dex or a close follower. D6+1(favored)+2(con) is 9 hp at first level. If you use racial HD you can squeeze a bit more in. Toss in toughness at 1st level and you have 13 HP starting +d6+4 per level afterward. An average of 7.5 per level so an arcanist will probably have around 75-80 hp at 10th level. That is close to double what 3.5 casters had and encroaching on 3.5 fighter range.
I don't get what the problem is.


I don't see the problem here.

1) After 1st level, any caster can pick up a few scrolls. When you run out of spells, use the scrolls.

I know, I know, I can already hear it (But that costs money!). News flash - ALL equipment costs money. If you think about MW full plate costing 1650; that could easily be 200 per mission for 8 missions. Since wiz/sor aren't buying armor, you might as well buy something.

After 8 missions, you'll be 3rd level, and shouldn't run out of spells nearly as fast.

2) If your number of spells is really that pathetic, buy leather armor. Okay, you'll have a 10% spell failure for the two spells you actually cast, but so what? For every other round; you'll have better AC.

3) Wait until August. At-will abilities fix the problem.


rkraus2 wrote:

I don't see the problem here.

1) After 1st level, any caster can pick up a few scrolls. When you run out of spells, use the scrolls.

I know, I know, I can already hear it (But that costs money!). News flash - ALL equipment costs money. If you think about MW full plate costing 1650; that could easily be 200 per mission for 8 missions. Since wiz/sor aren't buying armor, you might as well buy something.

After 8 missions, you'll be 3rd level, and shouldn't run out of spells nearly as fast.

2) If your number of spells is really that pathetic, buy leather armor. Okay, you'll have a 10% spell failure for the two spells you actually cast, but so what? For every other round; you'll have better AC.

3) Wait until August. At-will abilities fix the problem.

Don't we already have at will abilities?


Pendagast wrote:
rkraus2 wrote:

I don't see the problem here.

1) After 1st level, any caster can pick up a few scrolls. When you run out of spells, use the scrolls.

I know, I know, I can already hear it (But that costs money!). News flash - ALL equipment costs money. If you think about MW full plate costing 1650; that could easily be 200 per mission for 8 missions. Since wiz/sor aren't buying armor, you might as well buy something.

After 8 missions, you'll be 3rd level, and shouldn't run out of spells nearly as fast.

2) If your number of spells is really that pathetic, buy leather armor. Okay, you'll have a 10% spell failure for the two spells you actually cast, but so what? For every other round; you'll have better AC.

3) Wait until August. At-will abilities fix the problem.

Don't we already have at will abilities?

I totally agree with buying scrolls.

I just played this game for the first time as a wizard at Total Confusion here in Mansfield MA doing this exact concept.

By buying nothing but scrolls and healing potions I was able to survive all 9 modules I played. I bought 4 magic armors per module giving me 4 hours of magic armor for only 100 gold total. I also bought burning hands and magic missiles of course.

It also helped that my familiar was a toad for 3 extra hit points and a 12 con.

I think wizards are a great class. Though to be honest they they could use something extra since they don't get blood line traits.


DM_Blake wrote:


And I agree, all the summon spells are too short. It should be something like 1 round/level +1 round/INT (or WIS for Summon Nature's Ally).

How about concentration + round/level ?

At low level, it's still possible to keep that summoned critter in flanking position, or scout the cave's pool with an aquatic form. But you are giving up your actions, unless you severe the summoning link. It then disapears after round/level.

my last 2cp.

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