Ineptus, Im confused, who spends feats on wearing heavy armor in your games?
Fighters,clerics and Paladins get it for free.
Maybe the druid if he wants to wear dragon plate takes the feat.
Does anyone else have a reason to get heavy armor that by doing so wouldnt loose class capabilites in the process?
Paladins used to cost more to level than a fighter on XP tables, which was the "balance" to why they were "the fighter plus more"
Now that they cost the same xp, The paladin cant have what the fighter does plus more.
I dont really think the issue is even with heavy armor, so much is it with high level monsters and their insane attack bonuses.
In 1e there was a MAX AC possible, it was -10.
everyones attack table was based on THACO (to hit ac 0) which meant if your fighter had a THACO of 4, he needed a 14 to hit the "ultimate AC" of -10.
Take his roll, add str and magic weapon (lets say he had guantlets of ogre power the OLD kind and a +4 sword) he'd have a +7 to hit meaning to hit the "ultimate AC" he needed to roll a 7.
Meaning more or less he hit ALL the time.
This was basically a 13+ level fighter.
Now a 13th level fighter has a +13 to hit (lets say he has a 20 str and a +4 sword or a total of +9) or a grand total of +24 to hit.
+5 full plate, +5 heavy steel shield and say a cloak of protection +5 gives you an AC of 35 or 36 if you have the right dex.
said 13th level fighter needs a 12 on the dice to hit you.
The problem is as everyone goes up in level, PCs and monsters get more bonus to hit, but AC Maxes out. To the point where a 20th level fighter only needs to roll a 5 on the dice to hit the same maxed out AC.
Ive read of some extreme cases where AC can get to be 45 (but I cant remember the combo) But it certainly isnt something the Paladin is wearing that is shiny and metallic that gets him 45 AC.
I personally think the ODD cases of 45 AC should be eliminated, the BAB and ACs brought down to "normal levels" which would bring back the "signficance" of +8 to AC given from "mere" plate armor.
BUT that would be a mess for backwards compatiblity.
Monsters have attack bonuses that are way too high.
Maybe they can fix that with their beastiary, who knows?
Ive read of some extreme cases where AC can get to be 45 (but I cant remember the combo) But it certainly isnt something the Paladin is wearing that is shiny and metallic that gets him 45 AC.
It's not even such an extreme combo, actually.
Fighter 15, Full Plate +4, Heavy Shield +4, Dex 13 plus Belt Dexterity +4 (= Dex 17, +3), Armor Training +4 (and so, Max Dex allowed in Full Plate = +5), Shield Focus (Shield AC +1), Greater Shield Focus (another Shield AC +1), Ring Protection +4, Amulet Natural Armor +4. If such a Fighter is a Dwarf (like in my personal combo), add a +4 Dodge vs. Giants (for a total of AC 49 vs. Giants).
This character was built with a 15-points build, 240.000 gp allowance. The whole build is present here.
Characters with an AC higher than that can be created as well (+5 items instead of +4, Belt Dex +6 instead of +4, Ioun Stone +1 Insight...). However, this is a combo that only a Fighter can afford (Armor Training really does wonders...), although a Paladin with the above items can easily reach AC 38 (no Greater Shield Focus, no +4 Armor Training, Max Dex +1 instead of the full Dex +3 above).
And this barely covers the BaB of creatures like Balors and Dragons (for example). An Adult Red Dragon (CR 15) has a full attack (with Multiattack) of +31/+29/+29/+29/+29/+29, without adding buffs like Bull's Strength or Feats like Weapon Focus; a Marilith (CR 16) has a full attack of +25/+20/+15/+10/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25/+22, and can cast Magic Weapon at will (add +1 to all attacks except the last) - add a simple potion of Bull's Strength, and she's a lawnmower...
So, currently, yes, there can be AC that are ridicously high, but Monsters could easily swipe common ACs before, and with a little difficulty, can reach such ACs still now. So, either we tone down everything, or we pump up everything (and both are fine with me).
I am going to make this simple.
With heavy armor specificlly heavy armor for most classes, except fighter, becomes useless as characters who start with a dex of 10 will most likely outgrow full plate, and even mithral full plate with +5 books, and +6 enhancement item possible. With medium armor this is somewhat a problem too.
So how is my paladin and other non core classes going to deal with this?
Gotta stop you right there:
Cost.
If your DM even looks at the wealth-by-level guidelines, those +5 stat books represent a huge portion of a PC's total wealth over his entire adventuring career, too much to be worth using one that isn't a prime stat.
Scenario: Starting Dex of 10:
A) Gloves of Dex +6 - 36000, ideal armor: Mithral Full Plate - 10500, total = 16 Dex, +11 AC (before armor mods), +3 Touch AC, 46500gp spent.
B) Gloves of Dex +6 - 36000, Manual of Quickness of Action +5 - 137,500, stat bump into Dex (to make Dex be even), ideal armor: Mithral Chain Shirt - 1100, total = 22 Dex, +10 AC (before armor mods), +6 touch AC, 174600gp spent.
So, we've got option B, a maxed-out Dexterity and wearing light armor, an ideal example of the original poster's issue, receiving one less AC and receiving three more touch AC, by spending a stat bump and 128100 more GP. That's a LOT of wealth that could have been spent on other things.
The wealth-by-level chart (DMG 135) tells us that a 20th-level character will top out at around 760,000GP of total wealth.
So, Option B involves spending a massive 17% of his entire 20th-level wealth (and one of his five stat bumps, too!) on -1 AC, +3 touch AC.
Yeah... bad idea.
So, to the original poster, you have a very valid point... if your DM gives out unlimited wealth. But if your DM even remotely follows the rules, your point is invalid.
-Matt
I think the penalties for wearing heavy armor are too high as well.
Not really:
The two main issues you bring up are movement penalty and armor check penalty.
As time goes on, any movement penalties the PCs suffer are essentially nonexistent, for several reasons:
-Mounts, many of which fly. As long as the mount can carry the PC, the PC moves at the mount's full speed.
-Fly speeds. Every high-level PC should have a method of going airborne. When flying even "the basic way," either via Fly, Mass Fly, Wings of Flying, or Winged Boots, a lightly-armored PC flies at 60', while a heavily-armored PC flies at 40'. Still a one-third reduction, until you take into account the staple:
-Haste. A Hasted lightly-armored PC flies at 90', while a Hasted heavily-armored PC flies at 70'. Boots of Speed are a hugely-important item because they can get a PC Hasted with no action spent. And if the party isn't sporting Boots of Speed, the party arcanist really should be casting Quickened Haste every combat. The numbers may seem significant, but in practice, they really aren't, because any distance where the 20' differential comes into play is negated by an often-flying mount, or by:
-Teleportation magic. Dimension Door, Cape of the Mountebank, Boots of Teleportation, Anklets of Translocation, Quickened Benign Transposition even... PCs can get where they need to go no matter their movement speed.
Thus, the movement penalties associated with heavy armor essentially go away as PCs level up.
As for armor check penalties to skills, there are nine skills in Pathfinder Beta which apply an armor check penalty:
-Acrobatics, made nearly irrelevant by flight. Nearly irrelevant because of the Tumble aspect.
-Climb, made irrelevant by flight.
-Disable Device, made irrelevant by just taking off one's armor to disarm traps.
-Escape Artist, made entirely irrelevant by Freedom of Movement or teleportation magic. Barring those magics, Escape Artist is eclipsed by boosting Strength and BAB for a higher CMB.
-Fly: The weird one. More below.
-Ride, but only quick mounting or dismounting. Once you're on your mount, there's no armor check penalty.
-Sleight of Hand, but who uses Slight of Hand?
-Stealth, made irrelevant due to the ever-enlarging gap between Stealth-focused PCs and unfocused Stealthy PCs. The game encourages one PC to focus on, and thus use, Stealth.
-Swim, made irrelevant by Freedom of Movement, magical flight, or getting yourself a swim speed.
So, excepting the weird one, of the remaining eight skills:
-Three of them, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, and Ride, are made irrelevant by the circumstances behind their use.
-Three of them, Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim, are made nearly irrelevant by a flight speed.
-Two of them, Escape Artist and Swim, are entirely negated by Freedom of Movement.
-One of them, Stealth, only needs to be taken by specialists. And if a PC is a stealth specialist, he has no reason to even consider heavy armor.
So, on to the Fly skill:
I'm really not sure how this skill is actually intended to work in Pathfinder Beta. I can surmise that a heavily-armored PC using basic Fly will be sporting a Fly modifier of +4 (good maneuverability), +1/2 caster level of the Fly, +Dex modifier, +ranks and other skill bonuses, -armor check penalty. But the skill is Trained Only, so unless a PC invests at least one rank into the Fly skill, he won't be able to hover, which is a necessary component for heavily-armored full-attacking Fighter types, barring any additonal rules or effects which grant moves of at least half fly speed and a full-attack. (On a side note, this is another reason why the popular trade-iteratives-for-movement idea doesn't actually work in practice. Assuming a trade of 10' per iterative, a being with a 40' fly speed, such as a heavily-armored PC with Fly cast on him, has to trade two iteratives to be able to stay aloft at the end of his turn, but a being with a 70' fly speed, such as our heavily-armored Flying PC after receiving Haste, has to spend four iteratives to stay aloft. So the slower PC gets to make more attacks? That makes no sense.)
The best I can gather with this skill is that beyond a certain point, even with one rank of Fly, a cross-classing Flying PC won't be much hindered by armor check penalty while Flying, as the DC for hovering is a static 15. +4 for Good maneuverability, +7ish for caster level 14ish, +2-3 for Dex, +1 ranks = at least +14, before adding things like Heroism, luckstones, and other skill bonuses, and before subtracting armor check penalty.
So I'll concede that armor check penalty might actually have an impact on the Fly skill.
So anyways, what I've shown here is how the penalties associated with wearing heavy armor have a huge tendency of just going away as a PC gains levels.
-Matt
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I think the penalties for wearing heavy armor are too high as well.
The two main issues you bring up are movement penalty and armor check penalty.
As time goes on, any movement penalties the PCs suffer are essentially nonexistent, for several reasons:<snip to save space>
Thus, the movement penalties associated with heavy armor essentially go away as PCs level up.
A lot of those require spell effects. This is great for those the cleric can bring to bear, but still sucks for the paladin and fighter, that have to hope somebody buffs them, or suck resources away from combat capability to get maneuverability. I don't think the protection offered by armor is at all worth the sacrifice in maneuverability.
Many don't remove the penalty, just bring you up to slightly more maneuverability than you'd have had if you had worn light armor and hadn't been buffed. And the buffed creatures that didn't have your penalties due to armor still move faster. Maybe our style of play is really different from yours, but I have NEVER used medium or heavy armor because of the difficulties it cases me tactically in combat.
Ride, but only quick mounting or dismounting. Once you're on your mount, there's no armor check penalty.
Really? Where is this rule? It would be really helpful for my player's paladin!
Really? Where is this rule [Armor Check Penalty only applying to quick mounting/dismounting] It would be really helpful for my player's paladin!
It's kinda buried, but it's under the Ride skill itself. Pathfinder Beta page 70, 3.5 PHB page 80.
-Matt
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Really? Where is this rule [Armor Check Penalty only applying to quick mounting/dismounting] It would be really helpful for my player's paladin!It's kinda buried, but it's under the Ride skill itself. Pathfinder Beta page 70, 3.5 PHB page 80.
-Matt
Hrm, to me that looks iffy. I'm also concerned with the Mounted Combat Feat. But heck, in my RotRL game i'm going to make the AC penalty not apply. it makes me sick my paladin player doesn't think she can get a mount because she'll be unable to stay mounted after investing so many of her very few skill points.
Hrm, to me that looks iffy. I'm also concerned with the Mounted Combat Feat. But heck, in my RotRL game i'm going to make the AC penalty not apply. it makes me sick my paladin player doesn't think she can get a mount because she'll be unable to stay mounted after investing so many of her very few skill points.
It's not iffy at all. The only Ride check that gets an ACP is fast mount/dismount. ACP isn't even mentioned in the Ride header like it is for ... every ACP skill.
The reason it's in the table as an ACP skill is most likely because Ride did have an ACP in PF Alpha. That got corrected in the Beta, but the chart didn't get updated.
Ineptus, Im confused, who spends feats on wearing heavy armor in your games?
Fighters,clerics and Paladins get it for free.
Maybe the druid if he wants to wear dragon plate takes the feat.
Does anyone else have a reason to get heavy armor that by doing so wouldn't loose class capabilities in the process?
Paladins used to cost more to level than a fighter on XP tables, which was the "balance" to why they were "the fighter plus more"Now that they cost the same xp, The paladin cant have what the fighter does plus more.
I dont really think the issue is even with heavy armor, so much is it with high level monsters and their insane attack bonuses.
In 1e there was a MAX AC possible, it was -10.
OK, so your saying they are crap feats that no one would bother buying? That is one of my points. However in recent mithral threads Jason has stated that you will no longer be able to wear armor proficency wise as one type lighter. So I can see a lot of Barbarians, for one, getting the feats, as well as a number of non OGL/core classes.
everyones attack table was based on THACO (to hit ac 0) which meant if your fighter had a THACO of 4, he needed a 14 to hit the "ultimate AC" of -10.Take his roll, add str and magic weapon (lets say he had guantlets of ogre power the OLD kind and a +4 sword) he'd have a +7 to hit meaning to hit the "ultimate AC" he needed to roll a 7.
Meaning more or less he hit ALL the time.
This was basically a 13+ level fighter.
Now a 13th level fighter has a +13 to hit (lets say he has a 20 str and a +4 sword or a total of +9) or a grand total of +24 to hit.
+5 full plate, +5 heavy steel shield and say a cloak of protection +5 gives you an AC of 35 or 36 if you have the right dex.
said 13th level fighter needs a 12 on the dice to hit you.
The problem is as everyone goes up in level, PCs and monsters get more bonus to hit, but AC Maxes out. To the point where a 20th level fighter only needs to roll a 5 on the dice to hit the same maxed out AC.
Ive read of some extreme cases where AC can get to be 45 (but I cant remember the combo) But it certainly isnt something the Paladin is wearing that is shiny and metallic that gets him 45 AC.
I personally think the ODD cases of 45 AC should be eliminated, the BAB and ACs brought down to "normal levels" which would bring back the "signficance" of +8...
Your missing the point entirely. These are feats. Heavy Armor Proficiency is a third tier feat, like great cleave, or improved bull rush. As it is your feat will become useless as you get to the higher levels. Now I am not talking epic. Unless one talks the GM into allowing celestial armor materiel type, which would be good only, the ideal dex for full plate is 16. That is a +6 dex item if the character has a dex of only 10. I however doubt that a combat type would have a 10, at minimum I always try for 12, and ideally 14. So to get a better armor I usually end up going into the lighter mithral breastplate where I get a matching max dex of armor, full movement speed, and a next to no armor check penalty. So it is clear that in higher levels, when book are available, the feats you got, or spent on, are next to useless.
Again, this is about feats retaining usefulness, an unless something is reduced, max dex, armor check penalty, or speed, heavier armors become useless in the higher levels. It is a basic concept, higher tier feats in a tree should be better than the previous, not worse, and not as easy to fall to out-dating.
Never mind the fact that armor AC is the easiest to bypass.
P.S. Touch attack, which include tones spells and thrown alchemical weapons, ghost strike, or what ever that spell was, passes through armor like it wasn't there, I am sure there is more.