I have always found it a pain that in 3.5 the only armours you would consider are Full Plate; Chain Shirt & Breast Plate - in that order.
Full Plate gives you 8+1=9 pts to AC
Chain Shirt & Breast Plate 4+4 or 5+3=8 pts to AC.
No fighter types or Clerics should be wearing anything but Full Plate.
I note PF has changed this some, but wouldn't it be better to make all Amour Bonuses & Max Dex Bonus add up to 8 or 9. This would mean that you could have some variation. 14 dex Fighters could wear Half-plate, 16 dex Fighters Banded or Splint...etc etc
Otherwise why don't you just cut all the pointless armours from the list - nobody uses them, unless it is their only option.
I'm sure you can nibble around the edges of my argument, but you see my point don't you.
Cheers
Sean
I have always found it a pain that in 3.5 the only armours you would consider are Full Plate; Chain Shirt & Breast Plate - in that order.
Full Plate gives you 8+1=9 pts to AC
Chain Shirt & Breast Plate 4+4 or 5+3=8 pts to AC.No fighter types or Clerics should be wearing anything but Full Plate.
I note PF has changed this some, but wouldn't it be better to make all Amour Bonuses & Max Dex Bonus add up to 8 or 9. This would mean that you could have some variation. 14 dex Fighters could wear Half-plate, 16 dex Fighters Banded or Splint...etc etc
Otherwise why don't you just cut all the pointless armours from the list - nobody uses them, unless it is their only option.
I'm sure you can nibble around the edges of my argument, but you see my point don't you.
Cheers
Sean
So in our starting party for second darkness, we all had a 20 point buy. and we used average gold per character type for starting money.
The party started as a Half-orc wizard (going for eldritch knight), a human fighter, a human cleric, a half elf rogue and an elf sorceror (going for PrC Dragon disciple)
The starting gold was 435 combined, the characters started out knwoing each other as they were all natives of riddleport.
Pooling their money, we bought:
the fighter splint mail (he had no bonus to dex) a heavy shield and a longsword.
The cleric got scale mail, wooden heavy shield and a scimitar (human wep prof)
The wiz started with his bonded item, a falchion (orc wep prof)
Side note: oddly enough he spent up until 3rd level absolutely hitting nothing even when he eventually piked up a crossbow, never hit and he could hit with ranged touch attacks either, so he became a buff machine (until 3rd level when he took a level of barbarian)
The sorc got a longbow (elf wep prof) and a dagger and she was our archer as her dex bonus was so good
There was only 38 gold left for the rogue when we were done with "necessities" she bought studded leather armor (best AC for the price) and 6 daggers (for throwing and fighting)
This left the party with 3 gold for incidentals and a perfect shoe in for the lead in for the first adventure where they are looking for jobs.
As it stood the fighter had an 18 AC, the cleric a 16 AC and the Rogue a 17 AC. We were able to tank alot of fights because of our armor choices, especially at that level.
If there had only been the choice of chain shirt, breast plate and full plate.
It would have crippled us.
The fighter would have spent the same amount of gold for one less AC (breast plate)
And the cleric and the rogue would have been forced to buy chain shirts.
After buying light wooden shields for the cleric and fighter further dropping our ACs,
We would have spent 406 gold of our starting 435, on protection alone.
This would have forced the fighter to buy his long sword (15 gold for a total of 421)
The cleric would have had to buy a light mace 5 gold (total of 426) not allowing him to use a scimitar which was his human weapon proficency)
The rogue would have had to buy no armor (dropping her AC) and her daggers (6) (for a total of 432)
Meaning there were 3 gold left for the sorc and the wiz to buy things like spell components and a dagger.
The fighter would have lost 2 AC (no splint and not enough money for a heavy shield)
The cleric would have lost 1 AC (not enough money for a heavy shield and forced to buy a chain shirt thats alot more expensive than scale mail)
and the rogue would have lost 3 AC becaue she couldnt afford a chain shirt and nothing else in light armor exists (acording to your logic)
We would have had no bow or really any ranged capability.
Of course we could have down graded the fighter to chain shirt (dropping is AC more) and bringing in another 100 gold, but what to do with it? buy the rogue armor? Buy a bow for the sorc (most likely) and get the rest of the weapons the party is missing in this scenario (also most likely)
But it still gimps us all on starting AC
Now the fighter would only have a 16 instead of an 18, and he wouldnt have been nearly as effective of a tank as he was being as with an 18 AC in first level encounters, he nearly never got hit.
So there is clearly plenty of logic why there are other armors.
Not to mention, at higher levels your goons (like orcs and hobgbolins and city guards) can wear chainmail and splintmail.
no matter what level your characters are there is always going to be someone capable of benefitting more from the odd ball armors.
The party started as a Half-orc wizard (going for eldritch knight), a human fighter, a human cleric, a half elf rogue and an elf sorceror (going for PrC Dragon disciple)
So lets just wait a couple of levels. By 5th your Fighter and cleric will be wandering around in Full Plate, and will continue to do this the whole campaign.
If they have move than 12 dex, they will have some variation, Mithril Full Plate...
I am suggesting it would be a good idea to make the top armour +8/+0 dex, then +7/+1, +6/+2 etc etc.
BTW :- Mithril is just a rort, it should only add +1 to the allowable dex and not change the class of armour ie Heavy Armour to Medium Armour, allowing Barbarians to easily wander round in Full Plate...
Cheers
The problem I have with this is that all armors are not created equal. Full Plate should be better than leather armor or chain mail. It costs 1,500 gp is hard to make and is made to allow a man to shrug off blows that would kill someone in chain mail. At the point that all armor allows a "max AC bonus" of 8 then why not just charge the same for all the armor, since it is all the same mechanically?
I note PF has changed this some, but wouldn't it be better to make all Amour Bonuses & Max Dex Bonus add up to 8 or 9. This would mean that you could have some variation.
First off, how can you have variation if they all add up to being the same thing?
And if your idea is taken as is , why have different armor at all? Just have characters be armored or unarmored.
And why stop there? Why not weapons, too? Who uses those piddly little 1d6 things? You should at the minimum carry something that does 1d8. So those should all be the same ,too. Just call them 1d8 blunt or 1d8 piercing.
Yeah, I'm all for consolodating armors, and just letting people describe them how they want.
For instance just have breastplate, chainmail and scale mail be the same, so people can use different types based on whatever they think looks better.
There should be the following categories:
Light non-metallic (leather, padded)
Light metallic (studded leather, chain shirt)
Medium non-metallic (hide)
Medium metallic (scale, chain, breastplate)
Heavy (banded, splint, halfplate, fullplate)I'm almost even thinking that maybe full plate should have its own armor type (and separate proficiency) and should be made slightly better. The drawback would be that it requires special training to use (no class would get plate proficiency for free).
the problem with that thought process is that Full Plate armor was actually EASIER to wear than bulkier less protective predecessors. (chain, banded,etc)so actually, fullplate required LESS training and skill than the others.
IT was just like the crossbow, (and later the firearm) in that respect, it required less training for more output.It was a technological advance.
I would agree/argue for full plate costing more than it does,however.
The obstacle to making plate is 1) forge design capable of uniformly heating the large pieces 2) skill level to make large, high quality steel pieces with that forge.
Plate is a more efficient use of material and labor. A single master armorer could forge the plates for a full suit in a couple of weeks. A journeymen makes the fittings, and an apprentice polishes and lines the pieces. That adds another couple weeks.
By contrast, mail requires months of effort but can be done with very little training and primitive forges. Scale was likewise made of low quality steel (later version of high quality steel should be treated as banded). Banded or splint (or coat of plates, brigandine) requires simple forges and a modest level of skill to make narrow strips or small plates of steel.
Some monsters will have the skills to make mail. A few might make scale. A very few might make banded or brigandine. Many monsters will use plundered armor but will not have the skill to maintain it.
I note PF has changed this some, but wouldn't it be better to make all Amour Bonuses & Max Dex Bonus add up to 8 or 9. This would mean that you could have some variation.First off, how can you have variation if they all add up to being the same thing?
Actually, how can you have variation if they *DON'T* all add up to being the same thing?
Except for starting characters with limited funds, it very quickly boils down to chain shirt, breastplate, and full plate.
Nobody wears anything else.
Unless they find some awesome magic item that happens to be one of the other armor types (like trading in your breastplate for a +3 suit of chainmail) - and even then they immediately start looking to trade that to someone for a +3 breastplate.
And if your idea is taken as is, why have different armor at all? Just have characters be armored or unarmored.
Because it allows a character to customize.
One fighter might prefer full plate, while another might prefer a breastplate.
As RAW, the one who likes the breastplate has a lower AC, even with a 16 DEX.
Although he is better off than another fighter who prefers chainmail.
If the armors were balanced, then people could wear what they want, what fits their character image, without penalizing themselves.
And they could wear what they find in treasure hoards. No longer will the DM hear "What? +1 crappy splint mail? What kind of idiot wizard took the time to enchant crappy splint mail? Sheeesh, let's go to town and trade this in for something useful!"
And why stop there? Why not weapons, too? Who uses those piddly little 1d6 things? You should at the minimum carry something that does 1d8. So those should all be the same ,too. Just call them 1d8 blunt or 1d8 piercing.
Hmmmm....
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So far, the best solution I have heard was to get rid of the Max Dex completely, drop the speed penulty to Medium armor completely, and drop Heavy to -5ft rather than -10ft. I personally like this option, but I do not know if this will fully help. Armors like Half-Plate still are not likely to get used to much, while I can see Scale getting a slight bump.
Making all armors add up to the same A.C. is not a very good idea. It does not help customization at all, but helps the higher Dex characters and hurts the lower Dex ones. In the end, what it does is make the prefrence for certain armors change to what would now be the best option, typically being the Mediums. Getting rid of Max Dex goes alot better, because it boils the choice down to what you can afford + What your class allows. Light and Medium are almost no different, except that Medium trades a bit more A.C. for higher skill penulties.
And they could wear what they find in treasure hoards. No longer will the DM hear "What? +1 crappy splint mail? What kind of idiot wizard took the time to enchant crappy splint mail?
Thanks DM_Blake. You understand the issue I was trying to address.
Further, Full Plate will still be the best armour (for tank pc's anyway) because it will give you the highest AC when you are without your dex mod - albiet providing lower movement & Armour Check Penalty.
In having all armours on a sliding scale you at least provide the option for characters to wear something apart from Full Plate, Chainshirt & Breastplate (in that order).
On another note, I find it interesting that these boards will always get comments from someone with a completely opposite opinion. It is a good thing, but for poor old Bulmahn it must be as difficult as trying to herd cats to get what changes we all want in PF.
Cheers
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If you are refering to me, I don't have an opposite opinion. I agree that the armors need to change somehow. All I am saying is, (there are already like 4 massive topics on this), is that making the total armor values the same is not the way to go. It helps the most at the earlier levels for players that have high Dex, but those are precisely the levels that characters can not buy the better armors anyway.
A good, alternative option, is to treat proficiency more like weapons. Warrior types, Fighter/Barbarian/etc. . . only start with Light Armor. They have to buy better armor feats. Clerics and Druids only get Light and Medium, (more than the fighters because they do not have any extra feats to waste on them, but if they really want Heavy, they will have to burn that feat). Anyone else, gets only Light or no proficiency with armor.
Yeah, I'm all for consolodating armors, and just letting people describe them how they want.
For instance just have breastplate, chainmail and scale mail be the same, so people can use different types based on whatever they think looks better.
There should be the following categories:
Light non-metallic (leather, padded)
Light metallic (studded leather, chain shirt)
Medium non-metallic (hide)
Medium metallic (scale, chain, breastplate)
Heavy (banded, splint, halfplate, fullplate)
That's basically what I would suggest, although I would call the categories "A Little", "Some" and "Lots" (with various unusual materials like mithral or adamantine applied as a template on top). That way "Some" armor could be an elephant hide jerkin with a sallet and greaves, or it could be a breastplate and a great helmet (or whatever).
