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Okay so in order to give the DM some time to prepare for the next stage of the adventure, Heraguv has been set aside whilst I DM chapter one of second darkness, since I wasn't expecting the transition and hadn't read the first book yet I decided to start them fresh arived in riddleport a week before the golden goblins tournament. Charater creation was roll 4d6 drop lowest, you can reroll your lowest stat, but you have to take the re-roll even if it's worst, unless you have superior stats to begin with (say most stats higher than 14), then I disallowed rerolls.
Anywho so the game started out decently enough and everything was going great, our last session was something special though, I ran my first bar fight. It was easy enough to get started, dwarf PC evil cleric of Rovagug walks into a bar that although it isn't officially Human only, it was certainly only occupied by only humans most of whom looked on with distaste at the dwarf from the second he walked in and a bartender who was rude from the get-go even though he did serve the dwarf. The fight was easy to start a group of guys at a table started heckling the dwarf, calling him a gnome and such. of course the dwarf went to go pick a fight, and a brawl ensued, my intention was to have it just be the dwarf and the 4 riddleport thugs who were striking for non-lethal damage with unarmed strikes (they could have dealt lethal, but all they wanted to do was beat and humiliate the dwarf) anywho. it started out simple enough, but then something magical happened.
Thanks to paizo's critical fumble deck, one of the thugs punched his ally, at this point I decided screw the rules a little lets have fun with it. The ally punched back which led to the thug pushing him (bullrush) into the neighboring table. Thats when this crowded little bar became a riot. That table became involved and I started using CMBs like crazy. I had guys shoving (bullrush) men into other guys, flying tackles off the tops of tables (combined grapple and bullrush ending in both characters prone) etc. etc.
The party loved it, said it was one of the best bar fights they had ever been involved in but it led to some things that I feel need to be said about CMBs
First one, please do not allow miscellaneous attack modifiers to effect CMBs. I understand that some of the various CMB manuevers use attack rolls, but CMB can be used for adjudicating on the fly manuevers like my tackles and throws, and if you say that sometimes certain modifiers apply then you have to figure out if they can apply during those miscellaneous "outside of the book" manuevers and possibly have an argument with players who think they should apply etc. etc. right now CMBs are quick and easy, I can see having a single spell that specifically only gives a flat numerical bonus to CMBs, but I don't want all the attack modifying spells involved. Please keep it simple and let DMs who think they should apply houserule them in.
Second, for god's sakes, every game, every campaign I've ever played in or run I've seen someone try and bullrush an enemy into another enemy, can we finally see some rules that clarify what happens in this situation or is this something that is intentionally being left forever in DM adjudication land despite someone trying it every single campaign ever.
Third, Tackle really should be added to the CMB list. seems like something anyone can do and it isn't the same as overrun or bullrush since you go down with the enemy. Although really it's easy to just rule it as a trip attempt that only uses a base DC of ten but you end up prone as well, I still think that an "official" form of tackling would benefit the pathfinder RPG
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Sounds like a great bar-fight. I too would love to see rules for tackling. Yeah, its easy enough to adjudicate your own rule for it, but seeing a mechanical design for how it should work would be a great incentive. Plus, a grapple would be the logical extension of a tackle, with most folks wanting to keep their target secure after the tackle.
Imagine if you will a party with a hotheaded spell caster trying to be 'diplomatic' (god forbid!). The wily rogue or fighter who knows how easily the blaster can go off may have his tackle readied in-case negotiations turn south. A quick tackle plus a spellcraft (or whatever replaces concentration in the end) to maintain spell might put an end to a sour patch. This could also be used against enemy spell casters.
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Sounds like a great bar-fight. I too would love to see rules for tackling. Yeah, its easy enough to adjudicate your own rule for it, but seeing a mechanical design for how it should work would be a great incentive. Plus, a grapple would be the logical extension of a tackle, with most folks wanting to keep their target secure after the tackle.
Imagine if you will a party with a hotheaded spell caster trying to be 'diplomatic' (god forbid!). The wily rogue or fighter who knows how easily the blaster can go off may have his tackle readied in-case negotiations turn south. A quick tackle plus a spellcraft (or whatever replaces concentration in the end) to maintain spell might put an end to a sour patch. This could also be used against enemy spell casters.
I had honestly been thinking about that same thing, and my solution is that as with others there is an added bonus for beating the DC by 5 or more, you gain a free grapple attempt. Improved tackle would then of course remove AoO and gain +2 and greater tackle would make the grapple an auto-success. And thanks for commenting by the way.
Interestingly enough, the latest Kobold Quarterly (Winter 2008-9, Issue 8) has a wonderful article on bar fights.
"Tossing Kegs and Smashing Chairs - How to Stage a Great Barroom Brawl by Steven Robert"
A short excerpt:
"Imagine the party wizard careening across the beer-slicked floor with angry peasants launching mugs at her as she slides by, the fighter wildly waving a broken chair while perched precariously on top of a rickety table about to be smashed by the town brute, or the rogue swinging to their rescue dangling from the chandelier. These images are iconic, and having a brawl in a pub is a great way to spice up an evening’s play. You can even set a finale there, where the number of innocent bystanders makes it tougher for good-aligned PCs to break out the area-effect spells.
A barroom brawl can fill many roles. It can be the pseudo-friendly, machismo-filled challenge where everyone awakes hours after with a headache but no serious wounds. It can be the perfectly choreographed diversion needed to cover up other deeds. It can be a deadly earnest fight for the safety of the town. It can start as an innocent misunderstanding only to turn sour in a single palpable drunken moment, going too far and escalating an aggression that can end only in regret. These fights are different things to different people, and with a little practice, it is easy to start looking at your local drinking hole with tactical eye."
I highly recommend Kobold Quarterly magazine. You can get it in both print and PDF versions and in my humble opinion it fully satiates my former Dragon magazine addiction.
http://www.koboldquarterly.com/KQStore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath= 2
Something else that came up, can you draw a weapon while grappled and if so what is involved?
While you have the Grappled condition, you can't move, you can't take an action that requires two hands, and you can't make attacks of opportunity. Anything else (like drawing a weapon) is fair game, though.
Sounds cool! I'd like to see CMBs free from the boatloads of modifiers that (imo) dragged at the D%D3.5 game.
The manuever I want to see is the bodyslam/throw opponent manuever. Seems at least every other game somebody is trying to do this one. LoL
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Something else that came up, can you draw a weapon while grappled and if so what is involved?While you have the Grappled condition, you can't move, you can't take an action that requires two hands, and you can't make attacks of opportunity. Anything else (like drawing a weapon) is fair game, though.
See that honestly kind of bothers me, I mean if I have someone wrapped up in a wrestling match and they start to reach for a dagger I'm not able to do anything to stop them? I know in my games taking move equivalent actions will require a grapple check.
Oh by the way, in order to make grapple run much smoother in my game here is how I ran it.
The person who initiates the grapple is the grappler,
the person who gets grappled is the graplee,
Onced grappled the grapple is maintained unless either a) the graplee breaks free on their turn; b) the graplee makes a grapple check as a standard action to take control of the grapple thus becoming the grappler and the former grappler becomes the grapplee; or c) the grapler willingly ends the graple on his turn.
I hate checks to maintain the grapple so they are out the window and this also speeds up grapling in order to make it run smoother. On the graplers turn he may choose to perform any of the special grapple actions by succeeding on a grapple check (I included the special actions I created for the somebody always wants to try this thread)at a +5 bonus for maintaining control.
I can't claim full credit for the grapple resolution mechanics as I had been part of a discussion on it on the boards, but I find that it makes grapple sooo much easier to run and adjudicate and less confusing.
We used them in the barfight though as the only thing that kept the halfling pc from being thrown out of the bar using the throw person rules on the above thread was his brother using aid another to give him a +2 on his CMB check to break free.
See that honestly kind of bothers me, I mean if I have someone wrapped up in a wrestling match and they start to reach for a dagger I'm not able to do anything to stop them?
You pin them, I guess.
-hogarth, President of the "I Like 3.5 Grappling" fan club
yeah after they've stabbed you.See that honestly kind of bothers me, I mean if I have someone wrapped up in a wrestling match and they start to reach for a dagger I'm not able to do anything to stop them?You pin them, I guess.
Er, wouldn't they get a penalty on the to-hit? I'm inclined to agree that this doesn't seem right. For one, there will be virtually no strength to the blow from the graplee. But ... I don't want to complicate it.
Maybe just, if as the graplee you can make a successful grapple check but instead of reversing the grapple you pull out a weapon. (and may use it next round, maybe)|
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yeah after they've stabbed you.See that honestly kind of bothers me, I mean if I have someone wrapped up in a wrestling match and they start to reach for a dagger I'm not able to do anything to stop them?You pin them, I guess.
Er, wouldn't they get a penalty on the to-hit? I'm inclined to agree that this doesn't seem right. For one, there will be virtually no strength to the blow from the graplee. But ... I don't want to complicate it.
Maybe just, if as the graplee you can make a successful grapple check but instead of reversing the grapple you pull out a weapon. (and may use it next round, maybe)
That's exactly what I was going for earlier when I said making any move equivalent action require a CMB check on the part of the grapplee
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Thanks to paizo's critical fumble deck, one of the thugs punched his ally, at this point I decided screw the rules a little lets have fun with it. The ally punched back which led to the thug pushing him (bullrush) into the neighboring table. Thats when this crowded little bar became a riot. That table became involved and I started using CMBs like crazy. I had guys shoving (bullrush) men into other guys, flying tackles off the tops of tables (combined grapple and bullrush ending in both characters prone) etc. etc.
The party loved it, said it was one of the best bar fights they had ever been involved in but it led to some things that I feel need to be said about CMBs.
Like, what happens when someone ends up, crotch-first in the middle of the ghoulette wheel?
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Like, what happens when someone ends up, crotch-first in the middle of the ghoulette wheel?Thanks to paizo's critical fumble deck, one of the thugs punched his ally, at this point I decided screw the rules a little lets have fun with it. The ally punched back which led to the thug pushing him (bullrush) into the neighboring table. Thats when this crowded little bar became a riot. That table became involved and I started using CMBs like crazy. I had guys shoving (bullrush) men into other guys, flying tackles off the tops of tables (combined grapple and bullrush ending in both characters prone) etc. etc.
The party loved it, said it was one of the best bar fights they had ever been involved in but it led to some things that I feel need to be said about CMBs.
Nah this wasn't a gambling establishment. I had more fun with the table that was covered in beer but guys kept climbing on, failed reflex saves meant falling prone on the table, the table got a fort save each time to stay standing (DC 15 with no bonus) and managed to not break despite three guys falling on it.