Many players on this board have already noted that the location of the Arcane school powers available only to Wizards should be listed under the Wizard class section. Domain spells should be under the cleric, just as the Sorcerer's bloodlines are found in the sorcerer section.
School Descriptions, such as they are useful to all classes, should remain in the magic chapter.
Bloodlines add about 5 pages to the Classes chapter. Arcane schools would add about 3 pages and domains would add about 9 pages. I wonder if the editors would like to move bloodlines out of the Classes chapter, but they don't fit as well in the Spells chapter as schools or domains do. It is harder for a player to choose a character class when not all the class features are handy for comparison, so I think I agree with the OP.
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It's not currently in an intuitive spot, and I have trouble finding it every time I go to look for it (you'd think I'd make a bookmark, or something, eh?). Specialization is written up with Wizards in the PHB, and this is the replacement for specialization, so it makes good sense that it should be with the Wizard - the only class that actually needs to know anything about this.
Director of Games
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Hmm, this is a problem that we are aware of. As I see it, we have two options.
We can either move all of these options to the classes chapter, causing quite a bit of bloat in that chapter...
Or
We can move them all too the spells chapter, putting them all in one place, keeping the classes chapter clean, but having them removed from the classes that they are associated with.
I am leaning toward the latter, despite the inconvenience, just to keep the classes chapter clean.
Which do you prefer?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I think that minkscooter made a very good point about it being more difficult to make characters if all of the information you need isn't in the same place or at least in order of necessity (the beginning of the book flows well right now, unless you're making a wizard where you need to flip to near the back to figure out your school powers).
I think the classes chapter can still be "clean" while incorporating the information specific to each class.
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I'd prefer having all of it in the classes chapter. I hate hate hate hate hate (really) having to flip back and forth between the front and back of the book during character generation or at level up, and I find that a few of my players tend to overlook/forget about domain and school abilities when they level.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'd prefer them all in the class chapter, as they're class abilities, and I want them handy as a make a character.
Not only that, but if barbarian rage powers, bardic music abilities, and rogue talents are in the class chapter, I don't see how bloodlines, schools and domains are any different.
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Creative Director
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Personally... I'm starting to feel like they should be in the classes chapter, since "surfing for spells" is tough to do when the spell selections are broken up by non-spell tables. Especially now that domains aren't spell lists, maybe they and schools and bloodlines should all relocate into the classes chapter. That way, the only thing in the spells chapter is spells.
I'm with James on this one: They're unique class powers, not spell lists.
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I'm also going to agree with James on this. The class benefits for bloodlines, domains, and schools would work better in the classes chapter. Make it much easier to create and update characters that way.
I have the beta book but I still have the character chapter and these sections of the magic chapter printed out and kept together just for ease of use.
I think the decision should be made by whoever is laying out the book. I don't know what the changes will do to the "flow" of the rules as far as new players are concerned, but I hope the final release doesn't cleave as closely to the SRD as the Beta did.
More considerations:
If you're going to move it all to the magic chapter, please divorce the Arcane School Powers from the School descriptions, lest non-wizards derive the impression that those sections aren't relevant to all casters.
It really is nice to have major decisions like School, Domain, and Bloodline in the class section. You only make that choice once, during character creation. Why flip back and forth?
Order of presentation is a crucial way you can make this book more intelligible than its predecessor.
I definitely prefer a bloated Class chapter than have you page back and forth just to build a character with a specific class level. Besides these are class specific features, so best put together with the rest of the class in the Class chapter. Feats, skills and equipment is mostly generic for classes, so separating these make sense to keep them together.
Seeing 2 classes share familiars, and 2 classes share animal companions, maybe just place these two features at end of the Class chapter as they don't fit into any other chapter, but are not limited to just one class.
My girlfriend was making a Mystic Theurge this weekend and we were all over the book looking stuff up. Given the final book will be BIGGER, my vote is that everything go in the Classes chapter
Hmm, this is a problem that we are aware of. As I see it, we have two options.
We can either move all of these options to the classes chapter, causing quite a bit of bloat in that chapter...
Or
We can move them all too the spells chapter, putting them all in one place, keeping the classes chapter clean, but having them removed from the classes that they are associated with.
I am leaning toward the latter, despite the inconvenience, just to keep the classes chapter clean.
Which do you prefer?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Keep the classes clean. I'm not bashing 4 Edition here but that edition is too many pages between classes with all the power. Didn't like it much. So keep the description lean and mean and reference the pages numbers where the power get better description.
I've been looking for the Arcane school specialization powers all morning. Nice to know that there is a discussion about where they should go, but can I ask where they currently are?
EDIT: Never mind. I found them.
My comment is, wherever you plan on finally putting them, if they are not in the Wizard class desription, reference the page number they are on.
Thanks!
We'd have to put everything in one place. That includes domains. We're talking about almost 10 pages for that alone.
On the other hand, class abilities belong into the class section.
How much bloat would we see, all in all? Can we get a mockup or something?
When I create a character, I want to go to the first page of that character class and have all of the class features and abilities listed there.
What I don't want to do is bounce back and forth between other sections of the book.
Especially when I am comparing one feature vs. another feature (when there are options, like bloodlines, schools, domains, etc.) Often such a comparison includes balancing the benefits against other class features, and suddenly there's lots of page flipping.
It's much more convenient to have it all in one place.
As for bloat, the only inconvenience I see here is that anyone "leafing" through the class section to read up on more than one class will need to turn a few more pages.
Comparing the two inconveniences, I would rather "leaf" every time.
In other words, please put all class features in the class section and within the descriptions of the classes that have those features.
I prefer keeping the class section clean of schools and domains. I think the class section should be as easy to skip through as possible (Especially when using pdfs as i like to).
The wizards and clerics has to look at the spell section anyway, so it is not much additional bother for them.
I think that school powers and sorcerer bloodlines should be in the classes section and that domains should be in the spells section. After all, the domains section is very much larger and can be changed by changing your deity. Sorcerers and wizards can't do that.
Please also give a page number for Channel Energy, spells etc., when referencing class powers in a different chapter to the actual class.
I'd say to keep it with the classes, even if it does bloat the section.
Practicality should always trump aestetics. Looking at the powers avalible right next to the classes is always a plus. Truthfully, I wouldn't mind seeing spell-lists also placed next to their appropriate classes, though I figure this might be too much (though it would essentially eliminate the "spell-list" section of the magic chapter, leaving it just for spell descriptions).