Gate has always seemed a bit too good to me, and the removal of XP costs (while an excellent decision overall) has rendered it more than a little broken in my opinion. I'm talking about the function to summon a monster to perform an immediate service, as I don't have any experience with long-term services.
So, to start. As an example, with a ninth-level spell slot, you can either:
1. Cast Meteor Swarm
or
2. Cast Gate to summon a Pit Fiend, who will subsequently cast a Meteor Swarm himself, and then proceed to be at least as useful as another character for the rest of the combat.
And that's just the intended use of the power, which I'd already argue is just too much. Moving onto only slightly debatable uses, you can:
-Summon any Great Wyrm short of a Gold (provided the caster is not on the material plane)
-Summon an advanced Pit Fiend/Balor/Solar/Whatever with hit die up to the maximum allowed by your caster level
These monsters are far more powerful than any individual character, and quite possibly more powerful than the entire party. When you run into a CR 22 encounter, you can throw a CR 26 at it as a standard action with no gold or XP cost.
The result of this is that encounters after the party hits level 17 just degenerate into Gate wars. Often the solution is found in stupid and arbitrary restrictions on all forms of summoning in various locations, which doesn't leave anyone happy.
With regards to balancing Gate, my thought is that keeping a summoned monster bound to whatever plane you're on and under control would require concentration. The monster remains present and at your command so long as you concentrate on it; once concentration is broken it regains free will and remains present for d4 rounds (and is probably rather pissed off at you). The intensity of concentration required might be based on hit die and reflected in whether you must concentrate as a standard (up to caster level in HD) or full-round (up to double caster level in HD) action. The caster's saves and AC might drop while the spell is in effect, to an extent also dependent on the HD of the summoned creature.
This doesn't leave a provision for long-term service as that's seldom used anyways and I believe it's what Planar Binding is for. What I'm going for here is a spell that allows the summoning and control of monsters about as powerful as you want in battle, but at some risk to yourself and not as a free 40HD advanced Solar cohort who shows up to help you with every fight. Thoughts?
My simple suggestion for Gate: Remove the ability to control the creatures that are called through the Gate (although you could certainly use spells like Charm/Dominate Monster or even just plain ol' diplomacy).
It's a simple change that removes 99% of the possible abuse.
My simple suggestion for Gate: Remove the ability to control the creatures that are called through the Gate (although you could certainly use spells like Charm/Dominate Monster or even just plain ol' diplomacy).
It's a simple change that removes 99% of the possible abuse.
For the most part. The only issue there is that in a classic "good vs. evil" campaign, players can just summon archons and angels who broadly share the PCs' motivations and will probably do whatever the PCs would have commanded them to do.
This might be more of an indictment of campaigns based around such simplistic morality than it is of Gate, but I think it should be kept in mind.
For the most part. The only issue there is that in a classic "good vs. evil" campaign, players can just summon archons and angels who broadly share the PCs' motivations and will probably do whatever the PCs would have commanded them to do.My simple suggestion for Gate: Remove the ability to control the creatures that are called through the Gate (although you could certainly use spells like Charm/Dominate Monster or even just plain ol' diplomacy).
It's a simple change that removes 99% of the possible abuse.
The calling version spell has a base cost of 5000 gp for a 1 round/level task (longer tasks cost more, as explained in the spell description). So it's not like you could do that all the time.
But more importantly, I would dispute that (powerful) archons and angels would probably do whatever the PCs ask without any repurcussions (at least not in my campaign). For instance, while the local police department may sympathize with me when my neighbour's cat rips up my garbage bags, calling 911 in that situation will probably get me in trouble more than my neighbour. Calling in the really big guns (like a solar, say) should always be a risky proposition.
As part of the ongoing discussion regarding planar binding here, Ross Beyer came up with the idea of stripping the rules for calling spells, and deferring the rules to the monster writeup. Gate seems like an excellent candidate for similar treatment, as we don't necessarily want PCs gating in Abominations, like Infernals or Dream Larvae, which is all kinds of bad.
It may be as simple as patching it on the monster side, specifically if it is specified that all Balor, Pit Fiends, and Solars are unique individuals. As it is, it is a more powerful, more expensive, faster casting, summon monster IX. It may be simplest to patch it so that Calling effects in general are patched on the Outsider subtype side, like in the Genie, Mephit, Devil and Demon type description.
In addition, changing gate to a 1 round casting time makes it at least a tossup with summon monster IX.
As part of the ongoing discussion regarding planar binding here, Ross Beyer came up with the idea of stripping the rules for calling spells, and deferring the rules to the monster writeup. Gate seems like an excellent candidate for similar treatment, as we don't necessarily want PCs gating in Abominations, like Infernals or Dream Larvae, which is all kinds of bad.
I have no problems with PCs gating such creatures in! Now controlling them, that's a separate issue...
I'm generally in agreement with leaving calling spells open-ended, though.
Just bumping this thread. I really think that the calling/controlling version of Gate is the most poorly thought out spell in the entire game. I'd much rather go back to the AD&D version where opening a gate to a powerful creature is a calculated gamble rather than a super-charged version of Summon Monster XXIII.
Gate is just AWFUL right now. It is COMPLETELY broken. I believe that the "Calling" function of Gate should be eliminated entirely and that Summon Monster IX should be the go-to spell for Wizards that need to quickly summon creatures into combat. I also believe that if this spell was modified to allow for the summoning of uncontrolled creatures, it would still be incredibly overpowered and ripe for abuse by creative gamers. So let's just make Gate a Portal spell and be done with it already. :)
Gate is just AWFUL right now. It is COMPLETELY broken. I believe that the "Calling" function of Gate should be eliminated entirely and that Summon Monster IX should be the go-to spell for Wizards that need to quickly summon creatures into combat. I also believe that if this spell was modified to allow for the summoning of uncontrolled creatures, it would still be incredibly overpowered and ripe for abuse by creative gamers. So let's just make Gate a Portal spell and be done with it already. :)
See, I like that gate is the top-end calling spell. I like that it allows a higher magnitude of calling than greater planar ally and greater planar binding, especially if all Calling effects have uniform mechanics specific to the type of outsider and consequences for failure specific to the type of outsider. Keeping the deal with the devil aspect of gate is really necessary, in my opinion. However, the fact that gate is superior to summon monster IX is a problem. As a calling effect, though, the exception is that, unlike Summon Monster, you will likely offend the big bag of xp and magic items you just called via gate, and the outsider may hunt the caster down later so the caster and friends can mug the outsider and take his/her stuff then. That is, if I read you correctly, really your big problem with gate.
My issue is the fact that, by casting gate, in almost all cases you are adding another high level full caster or so to the battlefield. The opportunity cost for doing so is a single standard action and a ninth level spell slot. I believe that is far too cheap, and gate, if not used in a fashion consistent with GPB or GPA, should require concentration, and simply allow the high level conjuror to trade their actions with the actions of the outsider they have called.
Planar Binding has the outsider trap. Planar Ally calls an outsider who is always friendly. Gate, at the top end of calling effects, provides neither guarantee. Specific rules specific to the type of outsider should govern what happens in that circumstance.
My issue is the fact that, by casting gate, in almost all cases you are adding another high level full caster or so to the battlefield. The opportunity cost for doing so is a single standard action and a ninth level spell slot. I believe that is far too cheap, and gate, if not used in a fashion consistent with GPB or GPA, should require concentration, and simply allow the high level conjuror to trade their actions with the actions of the outsider they have called.
This is my problem with the spell. The spell indicates that you don't need to make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help - you can just cast gate and end up with a summoned minion that is completely out of proportion to what Summon Monster IX can provide. After all - why bother summoning a Celestial Roc when you can summon a Solar? Hell, why bother casting Meteor Swarm when you can summon a Solar? LOL
My issue is the fact that, by casting gate, in almost all cases you are adding another high level full caster or so to the battlefield. The opportunity cost for doing so is a single standard action and a ninth level spell slot. I believe that is far too cheap, and gate, if not used in a fashion consistent with GPB or GPA, should require concentration, and simply allow the high level conjuror to trade their actions with the actions of the outsider they have called.This is my problem with the spell. The spell indicates that you don't need to make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help - you can just cast gate and end up with a summoned minion that is completely out of proportion to what Summon Monster IX can provide. After all - why bother summoning a Celestial Roc when you can summon a Solar? Hell, why bother casting Meteor Swarm when you can summon a Solar? LOL
Put me down as one who believes Gate should just open a portal- it should bypass dimensional lock etc but I oppose most of the calling binding stuff, as well as being too powerful and open to abuse it leads to 1 player running 2 characters, or the NPC doing the heroics. Who wants to play a game where you meet something to fight then call in the NPC's then watch?