Dear Jazon and views,
I have heard of an idea on a slight rework on saving throws for spells. While you get to higher level game play your 1st level spells just don't seem to effect anything as the the saving throw is;
Spell Level + Casting Stat + 10.
So from what I have heard this should be based on 1/2 caster level instead of spell level.
Off the hand I think maybe things should be more like.
1/2 Caster Level + Casting Stat + 9 (rounded down).
I know it is breaking the base of 10 common rule, but this would get you the same range of bonuses, in addition to casting stat, to saving throw. However you could just give them a slight boost and leave it at 10.
I am sure though others have had better ideas than mine, I just thought I would start a thread for those who care to start discussion about it.
I'm not sure of the basis of this.
Your suggestion basically Heightens (Metamagic) every spell to equal your Max Spell Level.
I've written that Heighten shouldn't require a FEAT to use, but this seems over the top. I assume you would also remove the Heighten Metamagic from the game entirely, since there's not much other use of it.
I mean, sure, "1st level spells don't work against opponents at high levels", but so what?
You have plenty of spells that DO work against them, and you can use all the lower level spells for buffs/ utility/ non-targeted spells. (there's a whole thread on how overpowered Silence is, BTW)
IMHO, It seems like the game is 'balanced' around that Casters have "X many" spells of their top 2 or 3 Spell Levels, which are the ones most likely to have a decent chance of success against non-Mook opponents. Spells below that level are obviously not used in the same way. You can see this reflected in Sorcerors' Spell Re-Training, since lower level spells that were effective when they were the best you had can't be used in the exact same way vs. higher level opponents: Thus, you Re-Train into Buff/Utility/Non-Targeted Spells. Or do your PCs, instead of adjusting their tactics around the function of magic, actually go around trying to use Color Spray on Elder Dragons, and curse when it doesn't work?
Increasing the DCs for low level spells is a VERY signifigant boost to casters, when many already complain about caster vs. melee at high levels. I just think this is working exactly how it's intended to. Of course, it's an artifact of Vancian casting that you have X many 1st Level Spells, X many 2nd, etc, but that's Vancian. I honestly LIKE "Spell Points" (though it's obviously not viable for Pathfinder, perhaps a side-bar at best), but that system doesn't even do what you're proposing, since to cast all spells as maximally Heightened (which your proposal does, essentially) means you have LESS total # of Spells than the standard Vancian Spell Slots.
Assume your Int is 20.
Well the point is that at level 16 your first level spells save DC is the same as it was as if your 1st level elf with an 18 in Int. Should it not be innately more potent because your a better caster?
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Assume your Int is 20.
Well the point is that at level 16 your first level spells save DC is the same as it was as if your 1st level elf with an 18 in Int. Should it not be innately more potent because your a better caster?
While I agree entirely, I will play Devil's Advocate and present the other side of that argument: a 1st level spell can only channel so much power... kind of like 1st gear in a car transmission... doesn't matter how much horsepower you have, you're still only going to go so fast in 1st.
I'm a fan of the side where the more powerful the caster, even the low-level spells should be more potent - this already exists if you look at ranges... so why not with saves?
Assume your Int is 20.
Well the point is that at level 16 your first level spells save DC is the same as it was as if your 1st level elf with an 18 in Int. Should it not be innately more potent because your a better caster?
As I see it, No.
1st level spells CAN be cast with your max Save DCs (Heightened), it just uses more "Spell Power" to do so.The standard Vancian Spell Slot Table just ASSUMES you want to cast some of your spells using less "Spell Power", trading power for more castings. If you use Spell Points, then ALL your Spells CAN be Heightened.
You just end up casting less spells, since your total "Spell Power" stays the same (for given Caster Level & INT).
When the "non vancian casting" thread was being discussed, I proposed:
Anyhow, I don't really care to debate this more,
and it looks like both perspectives have been laid out clearly here for Jason to take account of.
While I agree entirely, I will play Devil's Advocate and present the other side of that argument: a 1st level spell can only channel so much power... kind of like 1st gear in a car transmission... doesn't matter how much horsepower you have, you're still only going to go so fast in 1st.
Indeed, but that's also already covered in damage caps and the general utility of most lower level spells being fairly narrow - see Charm Person vs Charm Monster.
If there really is a problem with the 15 minute day because the only spells reliably capable of defeating a monster's saves are the ones at the caster's highest level, then this proposal is a potential fix.
I'd be willing to sacrifice Heighten Spell from the rules to do it.
This is something that really only needs to be addressed in epic play. Saves from 1-20 scale fine. Or at least, it definitely seems that way after playing in an epic game. When you're browsing for spells after 20, if its anything other than "Saving Throw: none" you generally skip over it entirely.