Bards need 8 skill points per level

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Not only do they dump their stat points in CHA, but they are also weaker then rogues (who benefit from Evasion and Sneak Attack, and who have a greater incentive at having a high INT -- i.e. combat expert, improved feint feats, etc.)

Bards need 8 skill points per level, on TOP of a free knowledge point AND free perform point.

Either 8 skill points per level, or make Perform like linguistics: every rank grants you an instrument (or perhaps, every two ranks grant you a 3.5 perform category: sing, strings, percussions, winds, acting, oratory, etc.) One category every two ranks would make a bard proficient in all 8 "artforms" by level 16... not too overpowered if you ask me, as the nuances between each "performing art" affect the game little (PRPG has some nice rules on certain bardic musics, which uses these nuances, but other than that... the other D&D rules care little what kind of "performance" you are doing, which effectively, proves a point: only bards need two or more different perform skills...)

To make it more fun/complete, a bard could have a "favored perform art" which would grant +2 to the perform check, in a scheme/progression similar to the ranger's favored enemy (i.e. level 1, +2 to perform art 1; level 5, +4 to perform art 1, +2 to perform art 2; level 10, +4/+4/+2; level 15, +4/+4/+4/+2; level 20, +6/+4/+4/+2/+2)

To recap:

BARD Perform Skills
LEVEL #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
level 1: +2
level 5: +4/+2
level 10: +4/+4/+2
level 15: +4/+4/+4/+2
level 20: +6/+4/+4/+2/+2

So by level 16, all 8 perform types are learned, and by level 20, 5 perform types have the above bonuses (not including masterwork instrument bonus, if applicable; i.e. perform sing cannot be enhanced via masterwork or magical instrument bonuses, and would be a good candidate for the "primary" +6 bonus for a level 20 bard...)

Thoughts?

[cliff]

Personally, I think the differentiation between types of perform is getting far too detailed than things need to be. Breaking it down into categories only invites (a) criticism of the categories and (b) and infinite snownalling or various Perform types that a GM has to consider (Hmm...will Discordant Performance work with puppets? - lol)

Secondly, I think the concept of a dump stat isn't as much of issue as the fact that all classes use INT to get skill points in the first place. Each class should use a different stat on which to base it's skill points, as evidenced by the class skill lists. Fighters ought to be able to choose INT or STR to base starting SP off of, in my opinion. But that's a tangent.

To the point of you post, I still stand by my advocacy of removing Perform as a skill altogether and moving it to a Class Ability for Bards. Right now, they always need to throw SP into it and can't excel at other skills as a result, all to simply "turn on" their current class abilaties each level. It's a class skill also for both Monks and Rogues, meaning that the money making function of the skill is equal amongst the three classes, and that makes no sense at all.

Mechanically, a 1st level Bard must put one skill point in Perform each level to be able to use Bard class abilities at all (unlike the Rogue, which can simply opt to stink at what he does, but still use class abilites that are based off of skill ranks). With only 6+ to operate with, INT becomes a secondary dump stat just to get more skill points to place elsewhere. In addition, some Bardic Perfomances require differnt modes of Perform, which means Bards have to take multiple passes at the skll in order to cover all of the bases (act, dance, wind instrument, etc.) Just trying to have each of the nine (9) types listed under the skill in the sule book would take that many ranks, and without expendature in some, certain Bard class abilities can'[t even be used. Granted, the class abilities are spread out so there's basicallt "vocal" and "physical" activated abilities, but that's still asking a player to expend at least two (2) skill points per level to stay at max ranks in order to utilize his next available class ability. That effectively makes then a 4+INT class.

And because no skill check is required for Bard class ability use, that's double restricting Bard class abilities based on an entirely separate mechanic: the skill system. I'd even classify the fact that Bards don't get to roll or actually use their full Perform skill with class abilities is actually a third detrement to the current write up of the class.

I think 6+ is fine based on the concept of removing Perform as a skll altogether.

My re-write idea is this:
Replacing it as a Bard class ability which in turn allows Bards to add CHA mod to any skill as they perform opens up more possibilities and makes the idea of performing more of a Bard specialty. In essence, the player could make a skill check to sing a gripping song in a tavern about brave warriors defeating wicked monsters at Knowledge (History) skill + CHAmod to earn a few coins performing (the main function of the Perform skill now). Or, for that matter, Knowledge (Nature) or (Nobility) if that's where the player has chosen to put skill ranks instead. Much more flexible. Skills that are already CHA based add the mod again, so performing a poem to distract guards (a Bluff skill check because the Bard wouldn't be trying to make money - something there's no mechanic for in the current rules) would involve a Bluff skill check + CHAmod. This spreads the usefullness of the 6+ skill points that Bards get, while also allowing them to perform better than the actual effective skill they choose to use. Essentially this is akin to a Cleric being skilled in Knowledge (Religion), but an actor can be more convining acting like a cleric with less actual skill.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

6 + Int would be awesome if they remove Perform... I totally agree with you here!

If they leave Perform in, it's going to be a pain to calculate which perform skill to buy so I can use all my bard abilities properly... that's the last thing I wanna do playing a bard: accounting.

If they insist in keeping perform in, I'd make it a 8 + Int class;

If they insist at keeping various perform skills separate, I'd go so far as to make it a 10 + Int class.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

To recap:

One known perform style for every two ranks of perform taken, plus bonuses to 5 selected perform style as the bard progresses in level, as per the following table:

BARD Perform Skills
LEVEL #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
level 1: +2
level 5: +4/+2
level 10: +4/+4/+2
level 15: +4/+4/+4/+2
level 20: +6/+4/+4/+2/+2

So by level 16, all 8 perform types are learned, and by level 20, 5 perform types have the above bonuses (not including masterwork instrument bonus, if applicable; i.e. perform sing cannot be enhanced via masterwork or magical instrument bonuses, and would be a good candidate for the "primary" +6 bonus for a level 20 bard...)

Thoughts?

Ok, so I'm going ahead with the above changes in my campaign... our group is going to playtest these and I will post the results in a month or two.

[cliff]

Also, campaign setting rules for PF state that Bards are better at a certain type of Performance, so these rules are sort of stepping on that.

Just FYI...

[Kirth Gersen]

In my opinion, bards don't need 8 skill points; rather, the Perform skill just needs to stop being 5,327 different skills. I can get my head around maybe 3 kinds: Perform (acting), Perform (dance), and Perform (music). After that, it starts to get overly micro-manage-y.

[cliff]

Agree 100%. Perform should just cover anything a Bard needs to do, and specific types are a book keeping nightmare and really dont'help game flow at all.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

I still believe bards need 8 skill points per level. They should be the skill kings. They are the jacks of all trade right? You need lots of skill points to spread yourself across the whole skill spectrum, after all...

IMC, we are playtesting the 8 pts/level build, and gave bards a 1st level class ability that lets them use any type of Perform (i.e. they just buy "Perform" ranks, and choose a 1st level art; i.e. one of the 8 perform categories; be it sing, wind, strings, etc.) At level 3, 5, etc. they can add another perform category they know (for a total of 8 at level 15). All these perform skills use the same perform modifier (i.e. usually 1 rank per level, so level + 3 + Cha mod + 2 if using MW instrument)

Bards also gain bonuses to perform evey 5 levels, like rangers would with favored enemies, etc. (see previous posts above for details)