I think a quick fix for monsters that rely on Improved Grab is to grant them a size-based racial bonus to their grapple checks. This effectively grants them a double size bonus to grapples and restores some of the "oomph" they've lost in the transition.
Similarly, a creature such as the wolf, which has Improved Trip (is it a bonus feat? can't remember) should receive a racial bonus to this CMB for this maneuver only. As a side note (a little off topic): wolves should also take advantage of flanking and aid another--anyone who's watched them make a kill can see them doing it.
Sorry if either idea isn't original to me...just was thinking it over.
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Well, we don't really know what the improved grab ability is like in Pathfinder yet. I've been using a flat +4 for creatures with that ability myself.
As for wolves, they have the trip ability, which is different from the improved trip feat (and they could take that feat if you advance them). I personally haven't given them a bonus from this ability, since it's a free chance to trip every time they hit, so if it doesn't happen as often, I can live with that. I wouldn't be surprized if this creature ability is also updated in the Pathfinder Beastiary though.
So...since Improved Grab utilizes the grapple mechanics perhaps we can get Jasen et al to weigh in on whether or not critters with Improved Grab receive a boost to their CMB for the purposes of conducting grapples initiated with Improved Grab.
Guru--always rushing ahead.
I don't know... most of the characters in my groups have always been wiped out by mosters with Improved Grapple->Constrict...
The 'nerf' in CMB value for giant-sized monsters (+1 CMB instead of +4 Grapple for Large creatures, for example) is a welcome addition, for me. And granted, in my experience, these creatures are not SO MUCH weakened, anyway; just Monday, one of my player's Druid has been 'hugged to death' by and Advanced Shambling Mound without any chance to doing anything (surprise round = Hit damage & Grab and Constrict damage; first round, monster goes first = Grab damage and Constrict damage = DEATH).
All without giving the monster anything to boost his CMB; granted, a Huge creature with high BaB and very High Strength DOES NOT need much to kill a Medium-size character...
Just my 2c.
I don't know... most of the characters in my groups have always been wiped out by mosters with Improved Grapple->Constrict...
The 'nerf' in CMB value for giant-sized monsters (+1 CMB instead of +4 Grapple for Large creatures, for example) is a welcome addition, for me. And granted, in my experience, these creatures are not SO MUCH weakened, anyway; just Monday, one of my player's Druid has been 'hugged to death' by and Advanced Shambling Mound without any chance to doing anything (surprise round = Hit damage & Grab and Constrict damage; first round, monster goes first = Grab damage and Constrict damage = DEATH).
All without giving the monster anything to boost his CMB; granted, a Huge creature with high BaB and very High Strength DOES NOT need much to kill a Medium-size character...Just my 2c.
I don't know how your Shambling Mound managed to hit twice in the surprise round to activate its Improved Grab ability, but never mind. I agree that some grappling monsters are killers for their CR (I've heard bad things about the giant constrictor snake in 3.5), but you have to admit that your shambling mound was nerfed from the 3.5 version (only one grapple attempt per round instead of two or more).
It's the low-end grapplers that suffer the most -- the choker and the otyugh come to mind.
To answer the original poster's point, I'd rather see a solution that makes it possible for a PC to be a decent grappler as well (without resorting to Polymorph) rather than just giving monsters a hand-out. And the closer it is to 3.5's grapple, the better. Something like:
- Make a touch attack to grab the target.
- Then make a CMB check vs. 10+CMB to start the grapple.
- You can make one grapple attempt per attack in a full attack.
- Your opponent can make grapple attempts on you or can try to escape (CMB check vs. 10+CMB).
- Failed grapple attempts don't end the grapple.
- You don't get a +5 on succeeding rounds.
I don't know how your Shambling Mound managed to hit twice in the surprise round to activate its Improved Grab ability, but never mind. I agree that some grappling monsters are killers for their CR (I've heard bad things about the giant constrictor snake in 3.5), but you have to admit that your shambling mound was nerfed from the 3.5 version (only one grapple attempt per round instead of two or more).It's the low-end grapplers that suffer the most -- the choker and the otyugh come to mind.
Hmm, you are right on the Improved Grab of the Shambling Mound, it could not Grab with a single tentacle slam... well, with the Initiative on the first round and the +10 Power Attack (=3d6+20 for each slam and the 3d6+15 constrict, due to size and Strength increase) the druid would have been killed anyway, however.
However, I'm not so sure on the 'low-end grapplers suffer the most'; these creatures lost some bonuses, but they could make only one grapple check per round anyway (in 3.x, Grapple checks for monsters were 'BaB-based' like for characters, and with his +4 BaB a normal Otyugh could only make a single Grapple check anyway). Sure, it's not easy for them to grapple anymore - but with a +8 Grapple check against a 4th-level Fighter (with a +6 or +7 Grapple), I wonder if was easier for the same Otyugh in 3.x anyway.
The 'high-end' grapplers, on the contrary, are visibly nerfed, but as I said before, this is only a good thing IMHO...
However, I'm not so sure on the 'low-end grapplers suffer the most'; these creatures lost some bonuses, but they could make only one grapple check per round anyway (in 3.x, Grapple checks for monsters were 'BaB-based' like for characters, and with his +4 BaB a normal Otyugh could only make a single Grapple check anyway). Sure, it's not easy for them to grapple anymore - but with a +8 Grapple check against a 4th-level Fighter (with a +6 or +7 Grapple), I wonder if was easier for the same Otyugh in 3.x anyway.
The 'high-end' grapplers, on the contrary, are visibly nerfed, but as I said before, this is only a good thing IMHO...
The point is that the consequences of a failed grapple attempt are much higher now -- a failed grapple attempt stops the grapple completely. So the poor old otyugh can probably grapple for one or two rounds at best before dropping the enemy. Whereas in 3.5, an enemy would have to at least make some attempt at breaking out.
"High-end" grapplers get both a boost (since it's more difficult for opponents to escape and, since high-level grappling opponents usually outgun PCs pretty badly in terms of Str and BAB, it's still almost impossible for the grappler to fail) as well as a nerf (only one grappler per round).
Hah the otyugh always seemedlike one of those monsters that was so hideously disturbing the party threw everything they had at it and dropped it in three rounds, So I never got to do much with it.
I never found out what was so neo,about the neo-otyugh
(ive always said that "Oat-yug")
I remember watching Wild Kingdom on TV and these two guys trying to wrangle a "normal" anaconda and pretty much getting their asses handed to them for most of the encounter.
Some critters should be difficult to grapple with.
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Hah the otyugh always seemedlike one of those monsters that was so hideously disturbing the party threw everything they had at it and dropped it in three rounds, So I never got to do much with it.
I never found out what was so neo,about the neo-otyugh
(ive always said that "Oat-yug")
We always said "oh-tee-ugh", but I forget what that old 1e dragon article said on the matter...
I think the "neo-otyugh" was "neo" (new) to AD&D, and didn't exist in OD&D. That's all I can think of on that, and I agree, it was a kinda silly name...
"This Otyugh is named Neo, He is the ONE..."
AD&D MM had both creatures within a few pages of eahother.