I've been running rise of the runelords in 4e for a while now. My players has just cleared out frt riddic and taken back the dam. So I have some time before we start sins of the saviors, but i thought i would read a head and get some ideas going about how saviors will work as this section has a lot of 3e rules built into the puzzles.
My First problem: The 7 heads of Xin riddle (before they get to the runeforge) asks for a spell to be cast near each head that is from the same school as each of the heads in order to get the key out.
4e does not use the old 3e 7 schools of magic... does anyone have a suggestion to how I could do this in 4e?
I shoul be back later with some other questions about this adventure.
Thanks
I haven't gotten anywhere near that point in my 4e RotR campaign, and I haven't read the encounter you're discussing, but my first inclination would be to turn it into a skill challenge. Use Arcana skill checks for the actual casting of the spells (training in Arcana allows one to manipulate magical energies to a certain degree), and provide a number of other possible skills to provide clues to the characters on how to proceed. If I have time a little later I'll look up the actual encounter.
I'd say you're screwed. That's what you get if you use a D&D module with a different game ;-P.
If you know about the old schools and what they do, you could use spells that would fall into those schools if they hadn't been murdered in 4e. If the old spells are still there, you could use the 3e SRD to identify the spell schools.
If you don't know D&D's schools of magic, here's to show that I'm not just a hateful 4e basher:
Evocation: Creates energies and powers out of nothing. Main application is straight damage spells (fireball, lightning bolt, magic missile, and all its friends), but there's other applications, like floating disk or light.
Abjuration: Protects and wards from all kinds of things: Energies, alignments, creatures, the elements, divinations - you name it.
Conjuration: Conjure things up from elsewhere. The most typical application is to call in reinforcements (i.e. monsters), but energies and other things can be called as well, like an acidic arrow or an obscuring mist.
Enchantment: Mess with people's minds. You can change the way they think about something (making friends), controll their minds, warp their minds, shatter their minds, or kill it.
Illusion: Mess with sensory inputs and outputs. Make things look, sound, or smell different, make something seem there that isn't, or hide something that is there. Some of these spells are even semi-real (those with the shadow descriptor).
Necromancy: Deals with life and death by manipulating negative and positive energy. The most obvious and well-known application is the creation and manipulation of the undead, but you can also affect the life force of the living - mostly by diminishing it or snuffing it out. Hex type spells are necromancy, so if you want to make someone have bad luck, or make him weaker, or stupid, the Black Arts are for you.
Transmutation: Change the way things are - turn one thing into another (wood into iron, flesh into stone, annoying human into toad) or change someone's nature somewhat to grant him different powers, like make someone walk the air (not dance it!), fly, jump really far, or become stronger, smarter, you name it.
And, despite the fact that Thassalion doesn't agree, there's also Divination: Learn things, see things, sense things. Whether you want to see invisible things, things that are miles away, things that are behind a wall. It also makes you know if someone's evil, understand all languages, etc.
Finally, there's the Universal non-school. It has a few spells (5 in the 3e SRD) that don't quite fit into any of the schools.
I've been running rise of the runelords in 4e for a while now. My players has just cleared out frt riddic and taken back the dam. So I have some time before we start sins of the saviors, but i thought i would read a head and get some ideas going about how saviors will work as this section has a lot of 3e rules built into the puzzles.
My First problem: The 7 heads of Xin riddle (before they get to the runeforge) asks for a spell to be cast near each head that is from the same school as each of the heads in order to get the key out.
4e does not use the old 3e 7 schools of magic... does anyone have a suggestion to how I could do this in 4e?
I shoul be back later with some other questions about this adventure.
Thanks
Personally I'd take this as an opportunity to begin laying the groundwork for Sin Magic and why this ancient magic was so unbelievably powerful. Its simply not the magic that your players or any other 4E caster has access to. It goes way beyond that. Using the idea of 3.5 magic as the ground work for Sin Magic makes this task comparatively easy - 3.5 magic is far more powerful then anything your players will be able to get their hands on in 4E since wizards in 3.5 are simply a heck of a lot more powerful then 4E wizards, what they can do and how they can shape their environment far exceeds what a 4E mage can do.
Hence you can use ideas from 3.5 magic to work as a stand in for Sin Magic. From here you'll want to use, at minimum, an arcane and history heavy skill challange is in order to get past this and some of the other Sin Magic based obstacles in the later adventures. However I'd probably go a step beyond this and make the players get involved in some heavy research side quests with lots of role playing with scholars versed in ancient lore in order to learn enough to be able to continue forward. Possibly they need to borrow seven ancient scrolls (or wands or rings or staffs or what have you) with fragments of 'weak Sin' Magic on them in order to continue forward. This could be an opportunity to introduce some unique 'Sin Magic' based magic items into your game.
The other significant challange your faced with in introducing Sin Magic as powerful and ancient is the final encounter. Here I'd go out of my way to give the Rune Lord powers that are exceptionally potent and probably based after higher level 3.5 spells. Since your players can't get their grubby hands on this stuff you can go hog wild in making the final encounter one with a wizard versed in a form of magic beyond anything the world currently understands or uses.
Basically speaking RotRL's presumes that Sin Magic is basically normal magic with a twist. I'd turn that on its head for 4E and presume that Sin Magic is completely unlike any magic that currently exists and I'd use the adventures leading up to final encounter to demonstrate and emphasize its unique and potent nature.
Personally I'd take this as an opportunity to begin laying the groundwork for Sin Magic ...
This is some great stuff, I really like the idea, they will have already been in the library and knowing one of my pc's they will want to spend a lot of time in there learing about this stuff. That would be a great time to intro some stuff about sin magic and start driving him crazy with it....
Thanks to everyone and if you have any more ideas please feel free to drop them here. I have quite some time before we play this game (3-4 months) So I will have lots of time to play around with ideas
Thanks!
Rather than having them cast spells that match the various sins, they could instead have to perform a sinful act appropriate to each sin. E.g. for lust, kiss or grope someone; for wrath, punch someone; for pride, say something aloud about how wonderful they are. They have to come up with the acts themselves.
For my group (when we get that far, many months from now), I plan to have them perform a task earlier in the adventure which requires them to think about the various sins and put some icons (most likely, statuettes of each runelord) in order according to the task's requirements. Only someone who is at least somewhat sinful in the mode of each statuette will be able to move that statuette (although the same person can move multiple statuettes if they fit multiple sins).
Then, when they get to the spot you're looking at, instead of using spells, I think I might instead require each of them to stand in front of an appropriate statue and announce their allegiance. Sort of a "Hi, my name is Bob-the-Fighter, and I'm Wrathful." I'll be final judge of whether they've picked a/the sin that fits them, and no one will be able to claim they're sin-free. But I've got a long time before this, so it could still change by the time I get there.
Rather than having them cast spells that match the various sins, they could instead have to perform a sinful act appropriate to each sin.
Wouldn't fit. The runelords weren't about sin. They were about sin magic. Plus, you don't want mere slaves (i.e. anything too incompetent to do magic) to get in there, so you require actual magic.
Rather than having them cast spells that match the various sins, they could instead have to perform a sinful act appropriate to each sin.Wouldn't fit. The runelords weren't about sin. They were about sin magic. Plus, you don't want mere slaves (i.e. anything too incompetent to do magic) to get in there, so you require actual magic.
Not sure i agree, they were about sin, and the sin magic, there was little difference between the two. At least that's how i understood the section talking about sin magic and the rune lords. But even if that is not how it’s written it could still fit. It seems to fit the theme of what is going on very well.
I Also like the idea of having more than one way to open up the stone heads, I’m thinking of having something to do with sin magic and something along those lines, for example I have a PC that is very greedy, i figure he can reach right into the statue for the runelord of greed and pull out the key. Not sure i like the idea of performing a sinful act right there, but it;s not a bad idea.