The shortbow ruined the rogue.
There is no way a rogue should be able to use a shortbow.
Having the crossbow as a simple weapon makes sense because nearly anyone can quickly learn to point and shoot that thing (which is why it made it so deadly in real world history)
But the bow takes time to learn.
The classic rogue was limited in ranged capabilities (because they had no bow) so they were knife throwers.
But why throw a dagger when you can shoot a bow?
The short bow makes sense for the bard. But bring back the dagger throwing rogue.
Rogues wont throw daggers when it doesnt make sense. Yea you can say its meta-gaming because the shortbow does more damage and goes farther.
But think about the real character, I would shoot a bow if I knew how, instead of carrying six knives, I could have 20 arrows.
Also the rogue needs some dagger throwing rogue talents (more than one)
And rogues should get dagger weapon focus at first level and greater focus at say 5th level. The dagger is the rouges main tool.
This would also prompt rogues to take feats like point blank shot (throwing daggers in less than 3 feet for a plus one bonus) because as well all know point blank shot is only taken to be a qualifier for cooler ranged feats.
At 6th level rouges should be able to get multishot with thrown daggers , in the same way rangers can get it with bows.
I would consider letting rogues get weapon specialization with daggers only. This would make the dagger slinging rogue much more deadly, interesting and realistic.
The rogue in my game makes back stabs with a rapier, which it think is stupid.
Also what about rogue talents that makes the common dagger, more lethal in her hands, say a rogue talent that takes the 19-20 x2 to a x3?
Combined with the improved critical feat you could have a dagger slinging rogue doing 17-20 x3 crit for 1-4 damage, toss in wep specialization and greater wep specialization and a high level rogue will probably drop carry a short sword or rapier at all (which makes total sense).
also one more thing saps. they should be given much more ability to knock someone out.
A rogue should be given a sap attack rogue talent to choose. Let it allow the rogue a better crit range for the sap. Say 18-20.
This would make the sap attack more likely to work on someone attacking from behind. Because right now its easier for a rogue to just backstab someone, kill them and have a cleric heal them if they are trying to take prisoners.
Rogues should definately be better at taking someone out non lethally, ie capturing prisoners.
these could all work as rogue talents, if that is all they are then i'm all for them.
these could all work as rogue talents, if that is all they are then i'm all for them.
Im cool with more rogue talents, especially about what I noted above.
Im not the game desinger, and I dont care how they are designer in, but daggers should be more central to the rogue (if that rogue so chooses) and there shoould be a way (feats or talents) for a rogue to choose dagger over shortbow, and have it make mechanical sense.
on another note, I was never able to concieve a dwarf axe thrower with the multi shot ability in my mind.
Carrying all those handaxes, and then what stuffing them inbetween his fingers and throwing them all at once?
Hmmm,never made it work in my mind.
Maybe they need some axe throwing feats for dwarves?
The pickpocket, the burglar, the highwayman and the swashbuckling con-artists are all Rogues. And i think it's important to be able to play all those characters with the rogue class as a base, therefore a rogue has to be able to use all those weapons in order to include all rogueish professions.
I wouldn't however mind being able to switch out some of the rogue talents for something similar to the rangers combat style, for example: Knife thower, Swashbuckler (rapier wielding), Highwayman (Shortsword and shortbow) and Backstabber (Daggers).
This is all possible to do with some feats but it would be cool if it was a mechanic of the rogue class.
The pickpocket, the burglar, the highwayman and the swashbuckling con-artists are all Rogues. And i think it's important to be able to play all those characters with the rogue class as a base, therefore a rogue has to be able to use all those weapons in order to include all rogueish professions.
I wouldn't however mind being able to switch out some of the rogue talents for something similar to the rangers combat style, for example: Knife thower, Swashbuckler (rapier wielding), Highwayman (Shortsword and shortbow) and Backstabber (Daggers).
This is all possible to do with some feats but it would be cool if it was a mechanic of the rogue class.
I dont recall the original theif class having access to the shortbows.
2nd edition:
"Thieves have a limited selection of weapons. Most of their time is spent parcticing thieving skills. The allowed weapons are club, dagger, dart, hand crossbow, knife, lasso, short bow , sling, broad sword, long sword, short sword, and staff."
advanced edition:
"club, dagger, dart, sling, sword (short, broad, long)"
2nd edition:
"Thieves have a limited selection of weapons. Most of their time is spent parcticing thieving skills. The allowed weapons are club, dagger, dart, hand crossbow, knife, lasso, short bow , sling, broad sword, long sword, short sword, and staff."
advanced edition:
"club, dagger, dart, sling, sword (short, broad, long)"
Oh I remember the lasso and the knife, those things were useless.
Im not so sure we ever actually played 2nd ED much (if at all), I think it was just 1e to 3.5. Things like UA seemed to be the 1.5 version.
Well advanced had weapon proficiency rules in the equipment section too... those where kind of odd to me but they were there.
Unearthed Arcana expanded Thief weapon selection to the Shortbow. I find it perfectly appropriate, just think of Robin Hood's men (not much more typical rogues than that, even if he's more of a ranger).
Rogues (and most base classes) are designed to be useful for a large variety of design concepts. Making the Rogue "more dagger focused" or more "any weapon focused" robs it a bit of its versatility.
I agree its good to boost the archetype options a bit (as we seem to agree on when it comes to favored classes), but the things you suggest seem to put an exceptionally strong focus on daggers, even as just an "option".
All that said, I think daggers do *just* fine for rogues. I had a dagger throwing rogue in my epic game, very strong. Daggers are much better than shortbows because you *threaten* with them. Extra attacks of any kind are a rogue's best friend - not threatening an area is about the worst thing for a rogue. That + the difficulty of sneak attacking ranged + ease of applying any strength modifiers to damage makes daggers a much better option in general.
As for saps, again, they do fine - I've got a dual sap-wielding rogue right now - adding all the sneak attack dice to damage is plenty of "knockout" power.
Well advanced had weapon proficiency rules in the equipment section too... those where kind of odd to me but they were there.
yea the one proficency every four levels thing.
but ther was one really good thing about singular proficenies in 1e, if you were smart you took odd proficencies like morningstar and scimitar. Because when magic weapons were randomly rolled up, every one would fight over the +2 longsword, but when that +4 morningstar was rolled up...Tada! Im the only one that can use it!
that never seemed to work with polearms though, the tables neve seemd o favor the random generation of a magic ranseur.
anyway I still think shortbows took away all the fun of the iconic dagger throwing theif. I mean why dagger throw when you can short bow?
You carry alot more arrows than daggers, you shoot farther and do more damage.
I think we need dagger throwing feats or rogue talents. And for that matter throwing feats for hand axes for dwarves too, we need to bring back that oldtimey feel too!
Remember in 1e when dawrves were "too short" to use bows, and corss bows were so abismal the dwarves threw hand axes or hammers?
Now every dwarf fighter has a short bow. Yuk!
Unearthed Arcana expanded Thief weapon selection to the Shortbow. I find it perfectly appropriate, just think of Robin Hood's men (not much more typical rogues than that, even if he's more of a ranger).
Rogues (and most base classes) are designed to be useful for a large variety of design concepts. Making the Rogue "more dagger focused" or more "any weapon focused" robs it a bit of its versatility.
I agree its good to boost the archetype options a bit (as we seem to agree on when it comes to favored classes), but the things you suggest seem to put an exceptionally strong focus on daggers, even as just an "option".
All that said, I think daggers do *just* fine for rogues. I had a dagger throwing rogue in my epic game, very strong. Daggers are much better than shortbows because you *threaten* with them. Extra attacks of any kind are a rogue's best friend - not threatening an area is about the worst thing for a rogue. That + the difficulty of sneak attacking ranged + ease of applying any strength modifiers to damage makes daggers a much better option in general.
As for saps, again, they do fine - I've got a dual sap-wielding rogue right now - adding all the sneak attack dice to damage is plenty of "knockout" power.
why is sneak attaking with a ranged weapon hard these days?
Within 30 feet. thats point blank for a shortbow.I think sneak attacking with a shortbow would be easier because you aren't even close enough to the target to get hit by any melee attacks an you can just run aroun using it as a pin cushion?
why is sneak attaking with a ranged weapon hard these days?
Within 30 feet. thats point blank for a shortbow.
I think sneak attacking with a shortbow would be easier because you aren't even close enough to the target to get hit by any melee attacks an you can just run aroun using it as a pin cushion?
Because you have to have surprise, or deny them their dexterity mod. Surprise is easy enough to try for, but denying dex at range pretty much requires invisibility - you can't Feint or flank at range, etc.
Sure, you'll get greater invis somehow eventually, and actually get more than one sneak attack per round, but typically by then a larger portion of creatures can see invisibility and that's a long time to wait for more common usefulness.
Becuase of how sneak attack works in 3.x
Either
1. Target must be denied its dex bonus to ac (even if it doesn't have a bonus)
2. Must be flanking the target.
Now with ranged combat you can't flank a target, and feinting only works in melee (IRL you can feinting with a ranged attack, ever see a quarterback "pump" and fake out the other team before throwing to a different reciever?).
So the only way to get sneak attack with a ranged weapon is on a surprise round.